AIBU to think men should not be allowed in female prisons?

[SmileEachDay]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/prisons-safe-space

This seems interesting and factual...

them to have that

Oh, I saw it on twitter, I think Miranda Yardley shared it. Really scary stuff.

@eatingonlyapples yeah, FTM is a good question. I guess if they are happy to go to a men's prison they are not really a threat to male prisoners. Otherwise female prison for their own safety?

That's right Teehee - trans men can be housed in male prisons, if they have a Gender Recognition Certificate - this will change under the new legislation.

The article does not address this issue, you're right, apples - because it focuses on the risk to vulnerable female prisoners - perhaps it should have looked at the risks to vulnerable females who are trans men also?

Trans men don't seem to be fighting for the right to be housed in male prisons. We all know why, because they would be at risk there. You can tell yourself all you want that allowing any male who declares himself a woman into a female prison doesn't put those female prisoners at risk, but it isn't true. There have already been cases of women being raped and sexually assaulted by trans women in prison, and in one case at least, becoming pregnant

Paw do you have any links to back that up? I'm not doubting you at all - I'm just interested.

@Pawpainting 'There have already been cases of women being raped and sexually assaulted by trans women in prison, and in one case at least, becoming pregnant'

Do you have a source for that? I think I want to write to my MP about this, but I don't really know much. Where do you find out about stuff like this?

Boo, cross post
Clearly it's bloody shocking!

Teehee there is a thread somewhere with lots of templates for letters to MPs - would you like me to find it for you?

I worked for the prison service for nearly 10 years but have been out of it for 8 years ,it was a male category B. We once had a male who was sentenced who was mid transformation (he had breasts ) and came in dressed as female. It was suggested that the wing he should go into should be healthcare ( guaranteed single cell ) not so many men on there, no access to majority of other prisoners. It was for his own safety and well being. I can't remember any problems happening whilst he carried out his sentence.

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2879137-Open-Letters-to-Our-MPs-on-the-Gender-Identity-Bill ]]

MP templates Teehee

here's one - Noel Crompton hall

*"Hall claimed he belonged in a female jail. In August 1999, the Serious Offenders Management Committee recommended he be moved to the all-woman Mulawa prison.

Although still a man, Hall was on hormone treatment but it did nothing to curb his behaviour as a sexual predator. He was charged with raping his cellmate. Other inmates reported Hall had sexually assaulted them."*

From another article *"In NSW parliament today, Opposition Leader Peter Debnam appeared to claim that one prisoner had fallen pregnant to Hall while the convicted murderer was held at Sydney's Mulawa women's prison.

"Yes, he/she attacked a number of women," Debnam told parliament.

"Yes, one of them ended up pregnant."*

Also look up violent rapist and murderer Richard Masbruch from the US who was moved to a women's prison and went on to allegedly commit sexual assaults. There was also another case from the US last year where the female inmates were being sexually harassed by male transgender inmates while showering.

Also in Canada "Jessica" (Christopher) Hambrook sexually assaulted women after gaining access to a womens shelter.

There are some sites that collate these kind of reports, off the top of my head, gender trender is one, and another is gender identity watch. They are certainly eye opening.

There's also a document by a prison psychologist that notes a high number of male rapists and sexual abusers have a fetish of cross dressing.

According to Stonewall, cross dressers come under the trans umbrella.

Still?

When does the new term begin OP?

At least a few predictable posters are on hand to paste their previous responses to near-identical threads.

How do you mean 'still', Naice?

The consultation for the Gender Identity Bill is in the autumn. I'd say it was a pretty pressing issue.

The new term? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything?

Seriously, it's just one big "trans women are MEN and are paving the way for sexual assault!" echo chamber here. Any opinion to the contrary is completely ignored or shot down with the same arguments or name-calling of misogyny.

What do we do about intersex people, out of curiosity? The gender their genitals or chromosomes most closely resemble may not be the one they identify with.

@inkzooka 'intersex people' is not a homogeneous category, probably needs to be dealt with case by case
Is your argument that vulnerable women don't need to be protected from potentially abusive male bodied people because there are people who don't fit perfectly into either the male or female sex?

inkzooka why don't you research what happens to intersex offenders and come back and tell us.

In the meantime. of course, intersex is not trans and I believe the intersex society of the USA has asked for issues relating to intersex people not to be conflated with trans issues.

Intersex people are born intersex.

Many of these males identifying as women are not doing so until they are locked up in prison.

You may not feel this is a serious issue but I am guessing if you were incarcerated in a female prison and the new person in the prison was a male who had raped teenage girls, you might feel it was a relevant issue.

I have a lot of time and concern for transsexual people and trans gender people. However, if the state is going to lock women up, sometimes for very minor crimes, (the most vunerable women, often victims of domestic abuse etc) then it should do then the service of protecting then from potential further harm. Don't you think?

Likewise, trans people should be protected. But not at the expense of women.

Night all.

'New term' was referring to childish and trolling threads which add nothing and get the same, easy, tired replies from the same people. I guess you're a 6th former taking women's studies.

'Still', because there's a real deja vu feeling about anti trans the erosion of women's spaces threads here. It's an echo chamber where anyone who disagrees with you is shut down and those who already agree post the same boring replies.

"I'd say it was a pretty pressing issue."

FTFY

NaiceHam Not so, New people join and express views.

I've learnt a lot from trans people on line.

Maybe engage with the issue?

Maybe don't disrespect people for being concerned for women in prisons.

Italian

New people are only allowed to express views if they align with acceptable 'positions' on AIBU. Otherwise they're shouted down while posters smugly say "if you see transphobia, report it" knowing that they're adept at treading the fine line between reportable and simply bigoted.

The OP isn't new.

Who has been shouted down? I see one person was told to "get fucked". Any examples besides that? Being asked to provide facts to back up your position is not being shouted down, it's being asked to engage in discussion rather than dropping accusations of bigotry and running which seems to be the standard tactic.

@NaiceHam Express your views then. Why don't you think it's a problem? Why do you think that somebody who is in prison for sexual offences and has a male body (including a penis) should be in prison with women?

Instead of shouting 'terf' and 'echo chamber' and 'bigoted' why don't you bring facts, statistics, solutions?

I don't think they should be if they're a sex offender, but I don't think male sex offenders should be in with men anyway - then trans women who are lumped in with men (pre op and post op) are the ones who get raped in prison. But that's okay I guess, because they have or have had a penis at some point in their lives?

Then it moves to gay men, then to simply other men. Sex offenders shouldn't be granted a space with other people in the slightest.

What do gay men have to do with it?

@inkzooka then we are actually agreeing i think? Transwomen need their separate prison or at least separate area where they are not a threat for women and they are safe from men.
I'd be happy with that, would you?