AIBU to think men should not be allowed in female prisons?

[SmileEachDay]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/prisons-safe-space

This seems interesting and factual...

That is rubbish Worrid - there is no transhate here just people trying to get a handle on the implications of proposed legislation which many appear to be ignorant of or ignoring. I am very please that we have well informed posters willing to share information on this. Transpeople (transwomen) in particular are also considered when thinking about the impact of this and transwomen would possible by hurt more than natal women since they are said to have more to fear from predatory violent men (the ones that are of course not all men).

if you replaced transwoman with lesibian or with black or disabled

Should a lesbian be allowed in a women's prison? If it's punishment for a crime that seems fine.

Should a black woman be allowed in a women's prison? If it's punishment for a crime that also seems fine.

Should a disabled woman be allowed in a women's prison? If it's punishment for a crime that seems fine too.

Lesbians, black women and disabled women do not have penises do they? A surgically altered transwoman would be Ok surely and safer than in a men's prison.

Trans men don't seem to be fighting for the right to be housed in male prisons.

That's cos they're not fucking stupid.

Worrid did you even read the article? It isn't against transwomen OR transmen.

The author is asking how we plan to prevent men capitalising on the proposed new legislation.

Trans men don't get talked about the same way because women are less scared of a female socialised, female bodied person than they are a male socialised male bodied person. Because rape and male violence, duh.

Lesbians, black and disabled women are not part of groups which form a disproportionate risk to other women which is why you cannot group them in with transwomen (who remain biologically male no matter how much surgery they have or how many hormones they take and as a result exhibit similar levels of violence).

You just can't lump transwomen in with groups of women who pose no extra risk and pretend it is the same thing.

All I see on these threads are constant assertions that feminists and dreaded mumsnetters are terribly anti trans. I have not seen on this thread anything anti trans ( please forgive me if I am being thick) I don't see or experience anti trans. I do see a lot of very intelligent and impassioned arguments against letting biological men into women's spaces. What I have never seen on any of these threads is reasonaed argument for letting men into women's spaces. I am not being Goady I really haven't. I feel one side of the debate is missing and I want to hear that side. Lots of concerns are expressed but they never seem to get answered by people who are in support of these proposals, why is that?

I think there are two reason for our differing mindsets. One is the generation gap. The other is your idealist response vs mine which is based upon professional understanding

Don't include me in your patronising tosh. I'm 70 and disagree with your "mindset".

As for your alleged professional understanding - words fail me. You have no idea what other posters' professions or life experience have taught them. I'm struggling to believe you're in a position where your expertise is sought, but perhaps that's because I find the thought terrifying. In any case, your "professional understanding" has led you to the belief that certain female prisoners do not deserve the right to safety, so I doubt anyone would take your opinions seriously.

I suggest you go and catch up with 2017 - do a bit of reading and thinking and learn some humility while you're at it. I may be 70, but I'm grateful every day that a resource such as this (MN) exists; without it, and friendships with other younger feminists, I'd be possibly be stuck in the 60s mindset where all we had to worry about - or so some of us thought - was the lack of equal pay and a bit of sexism in the workplace.

So, I began by saying that threads like this were an echo chamber of people who shouted down anyone who disagreed with the anti-trans rhetoric prevalent on MN.

Looks like I've been proved right!

babyboomersrock

I've never been called to a jury or asked to pass judgement. Forensic IT. Telling others who (in my professional opinion) was responsible for what on the internet or a computer etc. My opinions are taken extremely seriously because I am excellent at what I do. You don't seem to be arguing about the guilt of such women, just that men are always worse and that it doesn't matter what they have done, protect them from the men!

Looks like I've been proved right!

How?

Naiceham you have though basically said that if a woman commits a crime she deserves to sexually assaulted, whilst at the very same time wagging your finger at us for not prioritising the feelings of men.
I think the reason you don't like feminism is because you don't like women.

Smile

Because anyone who hasn't agreed with the basic 'men are bad, m'kay' notion is shouted down. I get that much of this is from the great illiterate who live on straw women arguements but still - what did you hope to achieve when you began the thread?

Threads like this are an echo chamber of people agreeing with each other. Perhaps I was stupid for daring to have a different opinion (as were a few others). When the amendments become law, you'll be able to use it as an example of the patriarchy. A win!

"I think the reason you don't like feminism is because you don't like women."

Shit! Got me there userxxxx. Or, as the ever-intelligent blurryface (PhD?) would say, "duh!"

The most vocal disagreement was to your suggestions that:

For some women prisoners, it would be poetic justice for them to spend the rest of their lives sleeping with one eye open being in fear of rape by men who had been allowed in the prison.

In the event of a fire, priority should be given to saving computer equipment which has a monetary value than to saving the lives of these prisoners.

nauticant

I'd appreciate it if you repost making quotations vs your opinion clearer. Be a dear. It's only fair.

This thread again, yes mumsnet we get it you dont like transwomen (but you never seem to care about transmen female to male transition).

I feel very strongly over the issue of transmen. I hate the fact that there are lesbians out there who, because they are butch, are told they must be men. I hate the fact that butch women are never prioritised anywhere in the media. That they are invisible because they don't do femininity.

I hate the fact that young women are transitioning at a rate of knots to escape objectification, sexual harassment and the impossible beauty standards that women are held to. Or because they have been traumatised by sexual assault and think that identifying as a man will get them a pass.

Read the de-transitioning stories of transmen. How they are relentlessly bullied and under constant pressure to sleep with transwomen. How their their masculinity is mocked in a breathtaking attempt at gaslighting by men, identifying as women, and showing brutal masculinity themselves.

Transmen get thrown under the bus by men and transwomen. Just the same as women. Funnily enough.

My concern for transmen is wildly different from my concern over transwomen.

Because anyone who hasn't agreed with the basic 'men are bad, m'kay'

98% of sexual violence being committed by men isn't an opinion. You can't agree or disagree with it. It's a factual statistic.

naiceham, way to just randomly belittle me rather than address what I said. You're rather an unkind person aren't you?

"the great illiterate who live on straw women arguements"

If I were going to refer to people who disagree with me as "the great illiterate", I would spell "arguments" correctly...

I think that if it's a real documented issue the prisoner has had. Then yes. Allow it.

If it's a bloke trying to get a better life y getting to where the women are then no. It's two person bunks, and no cctv in their rooms. Totally not safe.

Of implement a trans wing.

Datun great ppst.

I've heard some of the de transitionsers stories. They are heartbreaking. Women left with facial hair and deep voices who realise they are women, always were women and get no support from the trans community when they choose to de transition.

I also know a transsexual woman the route with hormones, surgery etc and now is being thrown in with middle aged men who are newly identifying.

The transsexual woman I know feels very much silenced and that her story of being a very effeminate gay boy (who transitioned a long time ago) is kind of being stolen. It is being used by the same kinds of manly, macho sporty males who were able to achieve and live lives as men that she never could have lived.

Please do not label those of us concerned for women's safely as people unconcerned for the safety of trans people.

It is not true. I (and many others) are concerned for everyone. But putting women at risk is not an option. We need to find alternatives. losing your liberty Doran't mean you should be housed with the opposite sex. prisons were sex segregated for a reason.

I don't agree with your perception that anyone has been "shouted down". Disagreement isn't the same.

What did I hope to achieve? I found a bit of writing that I thought articulated a specific idea that I care about.

I make no apology for keeping the GI bill on the table, I think it's potentially a disaster.

As it is, you've kept the discussion going, so thank you for that - although you haven't really addressed the main thrust of the OP.

You don't seem to be arguing about the guilt of such women, just that men are always worse and that it doesn't matter what they have done, protect them from the men!

What does this even mean?

What, exactly, would a woman need to do to warrant removing specific protections designed to ensure her safety.

C'mon, tell me how far a woman has to go, before you consider sexual assault as collateral damage.

Wow.

A decent argument might look like this: in constantly drawing attention to a small number of transwomen who are violent offenders, the people insisting on restricting women's prisons to women only are catastophising and taking the actual stats out of all proportion, and in doing so, throwing transwomen like (insert case where accountant was convicted of embezzlement/ shop lifting/ failing to pay fines on TV licence) into a male prison which is clearly the wrong place for them. Let's work on making prison safer for everyone. I happen to think this argument should be aired, and dealt with properly and respectfully. There is also, I think, some truth in the catastrophising accusation - yes, we need to be mindful of the Davina Ayrtons, Kathy Brannens and Lisa Hauxwells of this world - but we also have to remember that they are not representative of most transwomen, any more than ISIL terrorists are representative of Muslims.

(Now, I think that particular argument still has to deal with the fact - fact, note, not opinion - that 90%of incarcerated violent offenders are male, and 98 to 99% of incarcerated sex offenders are male, and also has to deal with the fact that this thread is actually about men who aren't trans taking advantage of self identification to gain access to women's prisons, either because they think it will give them an easier ride, or because they are sexual predators who want access to a literally captive pool of potential victims - concerns raised by the professional body of psychologists who actually work with these offenders in prison).

But instead of a reasonable discussion, we've had a poster argue that female sex offenders (the 1 to 2%) deserve to spend their incarceration in fear of being sexually assaulted (which might feel like poetic justice to some, but is hardly the hallmark of a civilized society), that she'd sooner save computer hardware from a fire than human beings, that the pay gap is a myth but misandry is a thing (a made up word, which makes about as much sense as claiming white people are ever victims of institutionalised racism as opposed to one off instances of racial prejudice). Then when people didn't agree with her, she reached for the most pejorative word she could to describe our anatomy, describing us as "havers of cunts".

Not really doing your argument a lot of good here. If I was that transwoman accountant in prison for embezzlement, I'd be thinking "with friends like that, who needs enemies?"