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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think men should not be allowed in female prisons?

181 replies

SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 00:36

https://fairplayforwomen.com/prisons-safe-space

This seems interesting and factual...

OP posts:
bellasuewow · 02/08/2017 07:48

Reported apples, offensive posts

TeeHee2107 · 02/08/2017 07:49

@NaiceHam I don't think it's a 'pretty issue'
It's an issue that is extremely important and is very difficult to talk about because both sides get emotional. There are two very vulnerable groups and we need a solution where both are being listened to and neither gets harmed.

And I'm relatively new to the topic but so far the pro women side have been more articulate than the pro trans so I'm swinging that way. But I'm honestly happy to listen an learn

Antigonads · 02/08/2017 07:51

Yeah. Let's spend more money on transfolk.

Hormone therapy
Surgery
Separate prisons

Anything else?

PencilsInSpace · 02/08/2017 08:01

YANBU. Here's what the British Psychological Society told the government in a recent consultation:

psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

- As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
- As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
- Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).
- In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk an indeed may increase it. Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

bellasuewow · 02/08/2017 08:01

We are all scrabbling around fighting for precious territory that is free from men, why do an increasing proportion of the population need spaces that are free of men. When we refer to sex offenders we mean men. We have a huge issue of male violence and our tolerance and acceptance of it. I would be much more accepting of trans people if there was not an issue and real threat from men if that makes sense. To put it bluntly it pisses me off that women are at each other's throats over a few crumbs and men are not even debating the issue because of their privilege why should they care.

SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 08:07

*'New term' was referring to childish and trolling threads which add nothing and get the same, easy, tired replies from the same people. I guess you're a 6th former taking women's studies.

'Still', because there's a real deja vu feeling about anti trans the erosion of women's spaces threads here. It's an echo chamber where anyone who disagrees with you is shut down and those who already agree post the same boring replies.

"I'd say it was a pretty pressing issue."*

Blimey. I haven't been mistaken for a sixth former in a while Grin. I don't think the article in the OP has been posted before - the GI bill is really important - you may not think so, in which case it's a really good job that there are people who do who are opposing it on everyone's behalf.

If you find this subject so 'boring', why do you click on it?

WTF is a pretty issue?

OP posts:
NaiceHam · 02/08/2017 08:14

TeeHee2107

I didn't "shout" (denoted by capitalisation) and nor did I use the phrase TERF. I I think there are enough RF's making women look bad without creating more unnecessary acronyms.

I'll happily answer your questions though; it'll while away a boring train ride.

Why don't you think it's a problem?

Because prisoners are separated by category.

I think there are legitimate but simplistic comparisons between homosexuals and trans people. We need to differentiate prisons and by category of prisoner seems fine to me. Otherwise, do you segregate into MTF, FTM, gay male, gay female, straight male and straight female? You then have Cat A, B etc subdivisions. That seems like a lot of prisons and prisons cost money.

Sex offenders are kept in their own wing with huge amount of supervision. As a RF, you may want to protest about women going to prison because of disadvantaged backgrounds (it isn't their fault - men made them do it) but most prisoners of all types come from disadvantaged backgrounds. If you do something bad enough to end up in a scary Cat A prison then I care much, much, much less about you than most other people. I would rather not spend all that money on the NHS or other deserving causes.

Why do you think that somebody who is in prison for sexual offences and has a male body (including a penis) should be in prison with women?

Why not? To be in the same place, the woman will have done something pretty horrific. The article lists excuses for the women in prison. Men often have the same excuses. I worked in forensic IT and have been an expert witness as well as uncovering very frightening evidence of sex offenders' crimes. Women are often complicit in these crimes. They are as disgusting as the men. If some of the women I have had contact with spend the rest of their lives sleeping with one eye open then it seems a little like poetic justice.

It seems to me that you can theoretically divide these MTF's into rapists and not - as the anti-trans arguements seem to be about women being in danger. Someone imprisoned for fraud is as unlikely to be a rapist as any other man so we can disregard them. You may not like having them in your 'female space' but hey, don't go to prison and you can spend your time complaining about an elderly gent with his wife in an M&S changing room.

Then there are those who do pose a threat. They are in prisons with a lot of supervision and with equally nasty people. The supervision does a good (if not perfect job).

You may want to argue that men are statistically more likely to x, y, x, but so are black people. Shouldn't we segregate prisons by race? Is big, butch, lesbian Hilda encroaching on a female space? She can't rape due to the misandrist laws, but she could do some terrible things to her cell mate.

I think we have solutions already. I don't think the only difference between men and women is reproductive organs. I think it goes deeper than that and I think it's amazing watching people tie themselves in knots talking about the pay-gap myth whilst arguing for women's spaces and how violent men are. Because I believe in difference between men and women (within a massive range), I don't think that being trans is a mental illness. I think there are men and women and you can have the wrong 'person' in the wrong body and therefore trans is 'a thing'. I think tallking about men as a dangerous other species divides and creates issues. My brother was gay when it was illegal in England and I see huge parallels between fear of gays and fear of trans men now.

I think RF (or modern feminism) is tying itself up in knots, trying to pretend it isn't against men yet showing it is at every juncture.

Excuse my post if it's a bit rambly. I've been taking work calls in between typing and trying to write long posts on a stupid iPhone is tough going!

Rumandraisin1 · 02/08/2017 08:53

Not got time now to respond to all the points. I'm sure someone else will come along and do that if not I'll do so once I finish from work.

One thing that puzzles me is why you say that feminists would want to exclude or segregate lesbians (or gay men). Feminists believe that all biological women are women (regardless of the extent to which they confirm to gender stereotypes) and are entitled to access the (few) spaces that are divided by sex. The trans movement on the other hand encourages the transing of young lesbians and gay men to the opposite sex.

CaoNiMartacus · 02/08/2017 08:56

You've expounded some pretty questionable views there, Naice.

SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 08:59

The article lists excuses for the women in prison

No, it doesn't. It gives statistics about women in prisons. Show me an excuse?

Is big, butch, lesbian Hilda encroaching on a female space
I don't know why you want to go with a stereotype, but ok...no, she isn't. Because she's a woman, it's her space.

OP posts:
bellasuewow · 02/08/2017 09:34

Naice I would not compare gay rights issues to trans and many gay people do not want to be lumped in to the acronym LGBT and I can see why. You speak of the pay gap 'myth' good grief.........

NaiceHam · 02/08/2017 09:49

Because Hilda (our imaginary prisoner) is large and strong and has sexual desires directed towards women. She is in prison so obviously considers herself above the law. She is in a Cat A prison so has committed terrible crimes and she is physically stronger than most women.

So, because she's a woman it's 'her' space? Fuck Hilda! She put herself in this position. I can't find the stats I read but most women in Cat A prisons are there because of infanticide.

You can hazard a guess as to my age with the comment about my gay brother. Feminism was about equality not segregation. We fought against segregation not for safe spaces and trigger warnings.

BarbarianMum · 02/08/2017 09:56

Since when has rape or sexual assault been a statutory punishment for any crime?

And yes, women belong in women's prisons.

gingergenius · 02/08/2017 10:04

Tried reading the article and it wouldn't open 😞

NaiceHam · 02/08/2017 10:06

BarbarianMum

Was that question directed towards me? If so, ironically, not since the barbarians - Germanic tribes categorised as such by the Romans (The Semiotics of Rape in Renaissance English Literature, Ritscher, L). It still happens in other cultures but I assume you're talking about the UK.

Did anyone advocate for rape as a punishment?

SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 10:08

I'm not sure why we are debating an imaginary prisoner Naice - find me some actual evidence.

As you have mentioned sexuality a couple of times, I'm assuming you are focusing on sexual violence (although that has little to do with sexual desire IMO and everything to do with power, but we'll go with your train of thought)

99% of sexual crime is carried out by men. I can post the link to the report if you would like it.

I will state this one more time: of course imaginary Hilda is welcome in a female only space. She is female.

OP posts:
SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 10:11

[[https://fairplayforwomen.com/prisons-safe-space ]]

Try this, Ginger

OP posts:
Voiceforreason · 02/08/2017 10:11

A brave post Naice and I applaud you! We might be similar ages as I remember a very different feminism when it was about equality of opportunity and a level playing field. Now it seems to be about being the first among equals. I respect the fact that your working life has given you insight into areas most of us don't have. I entirely agree that separate wings for those judged to be more vulnerable seems reasonable. There is a trend on mn of glossing over the wrong doings of women imo.

MargaretTwatyer · 02/08/2017 10:22

Why not? To be in the same place, the woman will have done something pretty horrific. The article lists excuses for the women in prison. Men often have the same excuses. I worked in forensic IT and have been an expert witness as well as uncovering very frightening evidence of sex offenders' crimes. Women are often complicit in these crimes. They are as disgusting as the men. If some of the women I have had contact with spend the rest of their lives sleeping with one eye open then it seems a little like poetic justice.

This is one of the most stupid and evil things I have ever read on here. You are arguing that female criminals in addition to their sentence should face a higher risk of rape and sexual assault to punish them further? And that adding transwomen to prisons is a good way of adding to that risk and fear to add to their punishment?

You know you've just blown your own argument that transwomen should be in female prisons there? You've acknowledged that fear and risk exists and there will be very few people as extreme as you who believe it is a suitable extra judicial punishment.

Italiangreyhound · 02/08/2017 10:26

NaiceHam AIBU is notoriously rude but sometimes (because it gets more traffic) it deals with serious issues.

It is not transphobic to say a person with XY chromosome, and a male body, who has lived their life with make privilege, and has committed sexual and or violent crimes against women is not a woman and does not belong in a female prison.

inkzooka I would imagine many man are at risk in male prisons. Personally, I would want all people to be kept safe in prison.but not for that safety to compromise others.

BarbarianMum · 02/08/2017 10:30

I thought you were ham . For the same reasons as Margaret above.

And yes I'm talking about the UK, given that rape is routinely "prescribed" as a punishment for women in countries around the world today (no need to go back hundreds of years).

ShotsFired · 02/08/2017 10:35

@SmileEachDay [[www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2879137-Open-Letters-to-Our-MPs-on-the-Gender-Identity-Bill ]]

Thank you for this, I have been meaning to search/ask for exactly this thing Flowers

NaiceHam · 02/08/2017 10:37

Actual evidence of what Smile? It's still sad but sexual crime by men make up around 75%, not 99%.

From my professional understanding, sexual crimes are a combination of power and desire. Not my exact field; I found the evidence and presented it from a tecchie perspective.

If we aren't talking about sexual violence and the risk of it, what are we talking about? A principle? Protect women's spaces simply because?

I will state this one more time. Fuck imaginary Hilda. I have personally seen what she and women like her have done and if there were a fire in her prison, I would try to save computer equipment which has a monetary value. Most people (I don't distinguish by gender here) who have first-hand professional dealings with sex offenders have the empathy you do. They want justice through the courts. What do you think the difference is that gives you the rosey-eyed 'protect women's spaces - they're all victims' and them. I suggest it's because you have a naive outlook.

Margaret

I can help you read my post, but I can't help you understand it. I'm a busy woman. I didn't once say that women should be raped as a punishment.

Men in prison are the demographic most likely to be raped. Should all male prisoners be in solitary confinement? Should they not go to prison in case they are?

I don't care about the fear of women in Cat A prisons but agree that actual risk should be mitigated. The same as it currently is in our prison system.

VoiceOfReason Equality of opportunity gave way to entitled opportunity of outcome and it wall went wrong. The trend on MN is to LTB. I worry for more impressionable posters sometimes.

Italian

Is it misogynistic to say that I struggle to care about woman who has committed serious sexual and / or violent crimes and that hearing calls for "female spaces" for them is a minor irritant as opposed to anything else.

You talk about safety for all, but not at the expense of "others". The others you're so ferverently defending is women and you're doing so at the expense of men. Again, this isn't the world that feminists of my generation fought for but it is the reason we say we're no longer feminists. Don't blame men or male privilege or the patriarchy.

SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 10:37

Hope it is useful Shots Smile

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SmileEachDay · 02/08/2017 10:54

Naice - no, it's 99%

[[https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf ]]

As you're such a busy woman - p33

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