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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Staunch Tory wavering

311 replies

FuckyDuck · 01/06/2017 07:56

So as title says, I have always been a staunch Tory supporter and I also voted leave in the EU referendum. I genuinely have the utmost faith in TM to deliver brexit to the best of her ability

BUT

the NHS & education...

JC is someone I could never respect but labours approach to the NHS and education seems to be far far better. However I simply cannot abide any of their social policies (my view on this is that EVERYONE who is physically and mentally capable of working, should, no one gets a free ride unless disabled/caring for someone who is)

Now I don't want Tory flaming but I need to decide whether the Tory economical and social policies outweigh Labours NHS plans and education policies. Can anyone help?

OP posts:
Drinaballerina · 01/06/2017 07:59

Nope but I am in the same situation. I think when it comes to it I will still vote Tory because of the economy but I am less than impressed with some of their policies.

Justfivemoreminutesplease · 01/06/2017 08:07

Yup, same as well (no help to you, sorry.)
Don't know what to do as I really want to vote but am struggling. I thought of voting for a smaller party as a protest vote, but that's not going to happen as I only have the choice of Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and Ukip where we are.

noblegiraffe · 01/06/2017 08:11

Do you have school-aged children? The Tories have made a complete dog's dinner of the curriculum and assessment overhaul and I expect to see major changes again in the next few years to try to fix some glaring problems. The children are suffering from this.
Grammar schools will totally mess up the local secondaries and the thought of having to go through all the 11+ rigmarole for a system that is fundamentally flawed from the start is deeply worrying.
And the way things are going, there won't be any teachers left, and they'll be crammed into lecture halls or stuck in front of computers and taught by someone with no teaching qualifications (this is already starting to happen).

shivermytimbers · 01/06/2017 08:12

Hi Fucky! Labour aren't suggesting "free rides" as far as I can see. The Tories have cut benefits for people in genuine need and are causing real problems for people with disabilities and long term illnesses. The fact that most people who use food banks are in work also suggests that it's not the stereotypical feckless layabouts who are struggling, but people who are already doing what they can to support themselves.
I'd encourage you to rethink Labour. They've been painted as unrealistic and economically disastrous but they have given a much more detailed costing of their policies than the Tories who don't seem to have shown their figures at all. Also, remember that borrowing has risen far more sharply under the conservative/ con-lib governments than it did under Labour.
Really encouraged to know that people are questioning Tories! 😆

TheHouseOfIllRepute · 01/06/2017 08:13

I know a few Tory voters who feel the same
Not me I would never vote Tory
But unless their own voters turn against them they will never pull back from their far right agenda.

limon · 01/06/2017 08:14

If you cant respect Corbyn but you can respect May then i fear you havs no social conscience. Labour doesnt advocate those that can work not working... read the manifesto and reconsider.

OMGtwins · 01/06/2017 08:14

duck I'm a staunch labour supporter and I agree with the statement that you've made about everyone working who is capable of working, unless they are caring for someone. (Let's put Brexit aside, because it's been done to death). Can I ask exactly what your objections are to the labour policies on benefits? Do you think it's a case of there being jobs that people don't want to take or do you think there are other factors at play?

cariadlet · 01/06/2017 08:14

I'm curious as to why you have such faith in TM. She's been repeating the "strong and stable" mantra but comes across as being totally unreliable.

She was supposedly for remain during the referendum vote, but is now pushing for a strong Brexit.

She repeatedly and explicitly said that she would not call a general election (eg "I’m not going to be calling a snap election. I’ve been very clear that I think we need that period of time, that stability, to be able to deal with the issues that the country is facing and have that election in 2020.”), but then changed her mind when she decided that she would have a better chance of winning an election now.

She portrays herself as the person who will be the strong negotiator for our withdrawal from the EU (although she wouldn't actually be carrying out the negotiations in person), yet doesn't have the confidence to go head-to-head with other party leaders in a television debate.

I have absolutely no confidence in the woman.

cochineal7 · 01/06/2017 08:17

Genuine question: I am not sure if/how Labour's economic policies will work in practice, but at least their manifesto has it all costed to the penny. The Tory's have been in power for years now, and the austerity politics have not worked the way they have announced it (and major economists don't believe they will) - there is no money for education -my local school is set to lose 9 teachers and that is just to break even) or healthcare, while tax cuts are benefiting those who least need it. People with genuine disabilities have been treated with disdain and are suffering. So what exactly about the Tories economic policies do you like so much? To me it is directly connected to the problems with the NHS and education...

CaptainWarbeck · 01/06/2017 08:20

I agree cochineal. Other countries have gone against austerity, deciding to invest instead and have much healthier economies as a result.

I dread the thought of the effect of another 5 years of Conservative austerity policy on the NHS and education. They are choosing to underfunded both.

noblegiraffe · 01/06/2017 08:22

Also why do you think they are good for the economy? Their short-sightedness means things like cuts in social care have led to elderly people in hospital for a year, bed-blocking because they can't go home. The Tory solution is to expect relatives to take time off work unpaid and care for them for free. They cut benefits and disability payments and when this means that people can't afford to eat, the Tories expect Joe Public to step in and donate money and food to Food Banks.
They cut school funding so that schools can't actually buy essential supplies and who is expected to step in? You guessed it, parents are increasingly being asked for contributions.
People are paying for Tory economic policy, and it's not being done in a fair way.

Wellmeetontheledge · 01/06/2017 08:25

I'm a teacher and have seen the tories really mess up schools in the last few years. The new funding formula will not work, the new sats completely discriminate against anyone with dyslexia or a writing difficulty and SEN children in mainstream have had a lot of support taken away/ made more difficult to access. Also the new GCSEs with no coursework completely shaft children who get anxious and mess up an exam. They are also not representative of a child's true ability as they only test what was remembered/thought of on one particular day.

Sausagefingers · 01/06/2017 08:25

I am a teacher and therefore would never vote Tory anyway, as a previous poster has said the mess they have made of education and will continue to do so if re elected doesn't bare thinking about. However, for me the NHS is the biggest issue of this election. Have you heard of the Naylor report? Theresa May said during an interview with Andrew Neil that she will be using the Naylor report in their approach to the NHS. I've had a look into this and it's truly hair raising stuff- essentially selling off NHS assets as cheaply and quickly as they can in a 2 for 1 type deal.
Someone has done a very good summary of this on YouTube (sorry I can't link it) but the report is freely available to read. As I say I am a Labour voter so should declare a bias, I can't understand why this has not been more publicised though- people should know about a huge sell off like this surely?

Believeitornot · 01/06/2017 08:28

my view on this is that EVERYONE who is physically and mentally capable of working, should, no one gets a free ride unless disabled/caring for someone who is

^where have labour said that they don't believe this? Seriously.

It's worth reading up very widely on the policies of all parties. Reading the press isn't enough.

ToastDemon · 01/06/2017 08:28

Noble that's an excellent point. It's dishonest to posture as the party of low tax and low spend by simply passing the costs onto individuals ie food banks, having to buy school supplies, having to go private due to NHS waiting lists.

The other thing that would concern me is that the Tories don't actually appear to have a policy! One would have no idea what one is voting for. Plus there have been so many u-turns that anything they do actually say no longer feels trustworthy.

Here is a good example of the nothing:

"he Herald: “Two visits in six weeks to one of the country’s most marginal constituencies – is she getting worried?”

May: “I’m very clear that this is a crucial election for this country.”

TH: “Plymouth is feeling the effects of military cuts. Will she guarantee to protect the city from further pain?”

M: “I’m very clear that Plymouth has a proud record of connection with the armed forces.”

TH: “How will your Brexit plan make Plymouth better off?”

M: “I think there is a better future ahead for Plymouth and for the whole of the UK.”

TH: “Will you promise to sort out our transport links?”

M: “I’m very clear that connectivity is hugely important for Plymouth and the south-west generally.”"

FuckyDuck · 01/06/2017 08:29

Ok, I have a daughter who will not be starting school for 4.5 years. I actually really really like the return of grammar schools (no I didn't go to one myself). I can see that cuts to education budget aren't sustainable. So do I vote for now, or 4 years when the term is almost over?

NHS - I unfortunately rely on the NHS a lot as I have a couple of chronic health conditions- HOWEVER- labours ideas for the NHS are also not ideal. I think we need a 2% increase in NI, cut prescriptions for over the counter medication and stop ALL health tourism unless immediately life threatening. So still struggling to see what's going to help, as neither party would commit to an increase in NI.

Economic policy- under DC and TM, more people are in work, less people claiming benefits, bedroom tax and benefits cap have all been introduced- all of which I think are great (although not severe enough). I foresee more of the same, which is a war of jobless layabouts, although the lack of support for the disabled is worrying.

It's literally 6 of 1, half a dozen...

OP posts:
PigletWasPoohsFriend · 01/06/2017 08:30

but at least their manifesto has it all costed to the penny.

Which the IFS have pulled apart.

makeourfuture · 01/06/2017 08:32

Economy flat-lining. Worst of all the advanced economies.

purits · 01/06/2017 08:32

I, too, am wavering. She said that there is no Mayism so what does she stand for? As the campaign wears on it is becoming more obvious that there is no detail and no definition. We get woolly soundbites like strong&stable but precious few concrete promises. The manifesto isn't costed for goodness sake!. When we do get a proposal, it is too frequently back-tracked on.

I know that "Brexit means Brexit" but what does that actually mean? What is our policy, what is our strategy, where are our red lines?

What am I voting for?Confused

Believeitornot · 01/06/2017 08:34

Naylor report video

The Tory government has set up NHS property services where all NHS properties are held.

They will then sell this off to make money. However once you sell hospitals, they're gone. But the need for hospitals is still there. So the NHS has to rent them back at inflated prices..... it's a bit like PFI but worse.

The Tories did this years ago with the MOD. The MOD still needed the houses so have to pay high rents and maintenance costs and will never be able to afford them back.

Look what happened with the Beeching railway cuts. Railway lines were ripped up and they will never be returned. Never.

The Tory government is going to do the same with school buildings. Sell them, lease them back. Schools will have to pay higher rents and will never get them back.

This is the core of what the Tory party stands for. They want the public sector to have no assets, they want the private sector to own everything. But the problem with that is that our taxes have to cover the costs of schools and hospitals. Selling now will mean a short term gain for long term pain.

Economically it makes sense no sense. Imagine selling your house and renting it, with no hope of being able to buy it back? That's basically what the Tories are planning.

SloanePeterson · 01/06/2017 08:34

I've seen first hand, just in the last few months, how hard the cuts have actually affected our community. I called the police last Saturday night as there was a fight going on in the street that I could see from my bedroom window, one guy sitting on top of another punching his lights out. We live 200 yards from a police station. I got put ON HOLD to 999 and the call wasnt answered for 5 minutes. The police eventually showed up 40 minutes later by which time these guys were long gone. They were pretty fed up tbh, the first thing they did was knock on our door and apologise. Which was totally unnecessary, but they said there's simply not enough staff. Our station apparently is no longer open outside limited business hours. How safe does that make you feel? Put on hold for an emergency call?

The second is more personal. Our son has asd. Very obviously has asd, as in, a few. Knifes spent with him makes it very very clear. He's 9 years old and was only diagnosed last year after a long, hard and tbh quite bitter fight. The stuff on the news last week about ccgs trying to limit asd diagnoses struck a chord here as we suspected it was already happening. The CAMHS here regularly shuts it's waiting list for referrals for a year at a time. Over Christmas, our ds was saying he wanted to kill himself. There was NO HELP. At all. There are no resources for our kids. And this isn't just us, this story is standard. The fight for diagnosis and then the fight for support.

The local authority is responsible for giving children with additional needs an EHCP, what used to be called a statement. This costs them money and it's no surprise they don't give it willingly. That was another 18 month fight. Everyone I know whose child has been granted one is now fighting for it to be implemented properly. Again, fighting.

Which brings us on to schools. Our school is an academy and tbh it's been a disaster. We're on our third head since last summer and the school is now run like a business, the most important thing is the bottom line, and any child who isn't standard, run of the mill, is feeling the pressure and lack of support. We've lost about 20% of TAs, which again disproportionately affects those with additional needs.

I was in A&E twice last September and saw the absolute chaos caused by too many patients and too few doctors. The staff were amazing, and saved my life in absolutely awful circumstances. But god the women who were bringing me back to life at 9pm were stil on shift well into the next morning, and there simply weren't enough of them to cover the wad. I was readmirted a week later and saw bed blocking in action. I was one of them. I was put in a side ward after a&e assessment (my go sent me there btw, I felt fine) and told there were no doctors to discharge me so I'd have to wait til morning. My husband took me home as it had already been established that I was fine. The ward was full of mostly confused old women and it was truly awful. But again, a lack of social care meant there was nowhere else for them to be.

All of this stuff is very real and very frightening. It scares me how many of my friends, who should know better, who DO know better, because their experiences with their dc are the same as mine, say they won't vote, or that they don't understand what politics has to do with them. It has everything to do with all of us. This government has actively taken away the services and support that my child needs. Fuck that. That's not ok, never will be ok. Anyone who looks around them and sees what's going on, and still votes Tory is a bit of a dick, a fantasist, or an ostrich imo. Or loaded.

noblegiraffe · 01/06/2017 08:35

I actually really really like the return of grammar schools

But what if your DD doesn't get into one, which is the most likely outcome as the vast majority don't get in? You're also gambling on her not having any SEN or other problems that require support in schools because that's all being cut. Another 5 more years of the Tories and it's going to be very hard to turn around the chaos they're creating.

NeilYoungCrazyHorse · 01/06/2017 08:37

It seems as if we are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Vote Tory and we will get a better Brexit deal IMO but then carry on treating the vulnerable in our society like crap.

Vote Labour and go on a spending spree, kicking the debt crisis we have into the long grass. JC is a nice person but with him in charge we won't go into any more wars which is a good thing but will have to put up with more domestic terrorism as he doesn't have it in him to take anyone down who wants to hurt us. We would have to put up with Diane Abbot.

It's a tough one. Whilst I am reluctant to vote for TM as she has done a shoddy job of preventing domestic terrorism, I think that should JC get his hands on the country we will have a worse mess that when GB left office.

noblegiraffe · 01/06/2017 08:38

Vote Tory and we will get a better Brexit deal IMO

Why? People seem to think that Labour's Keir Starmer is more than up for the job.

Believeitornot · 01/06/2017 08:38

So do I vote for now, or 4 years when the term is almost over?

The damage will be done in 4 years time.

As for Brexit, who believes that Theresa May will be carrying out the complex negotiations on every single aspect of thedeal? Farming subsidies, grants for social regeneration, security considerations, pension costs for British citizens working in the EU, patent rights across borders, trade rules?

She is but one woman. She will not be reviewing every single thing - the civil service will be doing it. So for her to say that she will get the best deal is narcissim at best.

To get the best deal; we need a strong team of negotiators. Their political background is irrelevant (the civil service is politically neutral and doesn't all change when government changes). We do not need a stroppy "difficult woman" as she puts it. Who wants to negotiate with a bully?

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