Staunch Tory wavering

[FuckyDuck]

So as title says, I have always been a staunch Tory supporter and I also voted leave in the EU referendum. I genuinely have the utmost faith in TM to deliver brexit to the best of her ability

BUT

the NHS & education...

JC is someone I could never respect but labours approach to the NHS and education seems to be far far better. However I simply cannot abide any of their social policies (my view on this is that EVERYONE who is physically and mentally capable of working, should, no one gets a free ride unless disabled/caring for someone who is)

Now I don't want Tory flaming but I need to decide whether the Tory economical and social policies outweigh Labours NHS plans and education policies. Can anyone help?

I don't think we will get a better Brexit deal under the Tories at all. They have no-one good to negotiate and have already alienated the EU. They are likely to crash us out with no deal and severely damage our economy.

I was wavering but having seen that rabble on the debate last night have decided to stick with the Tories.

@drinaballerina re the economy, I don't understand how people think the Conservative party are so good with the economy when the deficit has gone up significantly since they came into power?

The Labour Party has only increased the deficit twice as far as I'm aware- after the Wall Street crash and after the global banking crisis.

I hadn't considered war and defence, which is pushing me back to TM, as I fully support Trident and ensuing terrorism is tackled. JC has some very worrying views on that subject.

I would try my best to get DD into grammar school, as it's something to work for and something that would benefit her, but if she didn't then she didn't try hard enough and wasn't clever enough. There's nothing wrong with the top achievers being given a leg up.

We are very much in the middle, DH works full time, stable job, good benefits, I'm self employed and we own our home (with mortgage) we've benefitted from low mortgage rates and lending has allowed us to modernise our house. As we stand the Tories have our vote but if something goes wrong, Labour has the safety net

Bear in mind that without a strong economic policy there won't be any money to pay for the NHS.....

Bear in mind Manchester may not have happened if their hadn't been cuts to policing and security.
So I wouldn't be too quick to go with the Tories on the basis of national security.

Also isn't May making noises about bombing Syria after the election?

There's no going back once the NHS is sold off. It's happening already to smaller services that people aren't aware of.

Schools are so underfunded that they are having to lose teachers, subjects and support staff. They can both attract/keep hold of staff because of the pressures/work load/curriculum whereby 5 year olds have to sit at tables and work (not learn through play/conversation/experience). Money is being put aside for grammar schools and free schools, meanwhile, if your child is from a poorer background/you do t spend £000s to 'train' them, they have no chance. This that funding benefits the wealthy/parents who can support education rather than on a great education for all (and our country).

So if you have a young family/are poorly/needing care then you've no chance. And neither have the rest of us. It's all quite terrifying. And then there's Boris Johnson...

I was in A&E twice last September and saw the absolute chaos caused by too many patients and too few doctors. The staff were amazing, and saved my life in absolutely awful circumstances. But god the women who were bringing me back to life at 9pm were still on shift well into the next morning, and there simply weren't enough of them to cover the ward.

And I have seen the opposite. I took DS in to a hospital, back in the days when Tony Blair was throwing money around. We were put in a holding pen room where the door had a window in it. After a while I got fed up of not being seen to. I could see the nurses station with at least a dozen people stood around chatting amongst themselves, not seeing to the patients. It was only when they clocked me, purposely stood at the window watching them, that they all suddenly got very busy and found places to be.
We always seem to swing from one extreme to the other.

The campaign has been a shambles and I've gone from quite liking may to really not. But I can't vote labour and will vote conservative.

I canNOT vote Abbott, McDonnell etc into frog bench positions. Also public services are vital but when the economy tanks it's all a bit irrelevant anyway as there's no money anywhere. I do not trust labour on the economy. I also - as someone who comes from a poorer background as has a good income now because I have worked very, very hard (it certainly hasn't been luck) - despise the politics of envy they are encouraging. Over 75k when you had a family and live in London is not a lot of money. My mortgage is four times what you'd pay in the rest of the country and for a very modest flat. Despite what McDonnell may think, I'm not rich.

This election has been very very misguided.

Bear in mind Manchester may not have happened if their hadn't been cuts to policing and security.
So I wouldn't be too quick to go with the Tories on the basis of national security.

That is way too simplistic a view.

Bear in mind that without a strong economic policy there won't be any money to pay for the NHS.....

And what proof is there that we will have a strong economy under Theresa May? After 7 years, how is our economy faring....... we've had 7 years of austerity, having faced the same worldwide economic challenges as the US and Canada, and Europe.

Yet we've had our credit rating downgraded, we have inflation, we have a low wage economy, we have schools falling apart, hospitals in deficit.

The Tories are offering nothing to improve the economy beyond more of the same. If it hasn't worked after 7 years, how much longer do we wait?

We should be investing. Not selling off the country's assets for short term profit. How will we ever get those back?

The NHS is suffering for two reasons. The first is demand. Demand for healthcare is increasing because of woeful social care and our unhealthy population. The second is funsing. Funding hasn't been increased in line with demand. It isn't about mismanagement of resources.

The same with education.

The Tories could have made the choice to make investments which would have increased jobs increased growth and therefore grew the economy.

They've had a chance at this before and last time, they left the country in a dire state and are doing the same again.

but if she didn't then she didn't try hard enough and wasn't clever enough

Nope, the 11+ is flawed and routinely puts kids into the wrong school. Kids who don't pass one day pass the next. You're assuming it works but it doesn't, so that's a gamble. On top of that, schools near grammars are more likely to struggle to recruit staff and have fewer long-term experienced teachers. Are you happy with the prospect of your DD not going to a grammar? Because if not, you really need to consider it.

OP You have a dc starting school in 4 years - the damage that has already been done to the education system will take more than 4 years to repair!!! If you are planning on a state education then you really need to consider the implications of your vote.
Police officers, teachers, paramedics, gps, hospital doctors, nurses, nhs workers, public sector workers are all saying how bad services are - they are not making it up!!!
I have a disabled child and fear for his future - I and fellow parents have to battle for services our children are supposed to receive but there are no specialist staff to provide - SALT therapists are in such short supply that my sons school couldn't recruit one even when they had the money!!! Children who can't walk waiting months to have repairs made to their only wheelchair.................it really is that bad!!!!

I also - as someone who comes from a poorer background as has a good income now because I have worked very, very hard (it certainly hasn't been luck) - despise the politics of envy they are encouraging

I came from a similar background.

And I can see that the Tories will leave a lot of people behind. The Tories create division - why do they only care about the "just about managing", for example? What about those who aren't managing at all

I am not a Tory (just to be clear).

A few weeks ago I found a great lump. I could not get a GP appointment for a referral despite them knowing why I needed one. I found the lump onFriday night- all weekly appointments are issued on friday afternoon and get snapped up. It didn't meet the criteria for an emergency appointment.

I live in a pretty affluent (Tory) area.

I ended up paying to go to Nuffield. Lots of people cant afford to pay.

Again, division. Never working together.

Social stratification - the Tory ideology.

Gosh lots of wavering tories on MN in last few days perhaps all too young or selectively amnesiac to remember the winter of discontent strikes, daily power cuts, schools closed for weeks due to a lack of fuel , rubbish not collected, dead not buried when we were force to go to the IMF with a begging bowl ala Greece because the labour government of the day shook the magic money tree a bit too hard

You say you need the NHS so you must not vote Tory unless you want to go private. Every NHS and economic expert is clear that the Tories' plans are utterly inadequate and the NHS will continue to decline if there are elected. There is no turning back. It really is that stark.

What about Lib Dems?

Whoops- I found a breast lump. It wasn't great at all.

I have voted for all parties over the last 25 years..

However, nothing would persuade me to vote tory:

The NHS as we know it won't exist... It's already happening with selling off services to people like Virgin...they are replacing highly qualified staff by unqualified etc etc It's a race to the bottom. Business models absolutely have no place in healthcare.

We will have a US style insurance scheme...
NHS. Is being sold off under the Tories.. . Do read the Naylor Report/summary ... Essentially they want to sell off NHS buildings and land, less than market value (2for 1 offers) to private investors (no doubt their pals.). If the individual NHS trust refuses to do this they are fined at approx 3% of this asset annually... Oh yes and if they don't agree theuly will be starved through budget cuts.... Essentially blackmailed.

This WILL happen if Tories get reelected

I'm always amazed that people seem to consider the economy, the NHS, national security etc... completely separately to Brexit.
Brexit is going to decide of all of that. Our ability to get a deal (or not) will be the ONE thing that will have the most impact on the economy, the NHS or our national security.

So really it depends if you think that TM will be able to get whatever she thinks she can get - access to the free market or rather the bits she is interested in, wonthe FoM .

One comment about security.
Under the Conservatives, the police forces have been drastically reduced (with some people highlighting more than 2 years ago thatbthe reductions were such that soon we would need the army in the street to cope in case of emergency....)
The army has been reduced to next to nothing. There hasn't been as few boats etc... in the Navy since the 1800s. So one might think that Trident is a good thing. I would argue that we should start by not dismantling our army first.... which is what the Tories ave done so far.

And what's to say your child won't need extra help in school- and it will no longer be there. Shouldn't every child have the opportunity for success?

I went to a grammar school. My husband didn't. He has much more understanding of the word than me. I was taught to write a good essay/pass tests and forget it all. He is much more (financially) successful than me.

Our eldest took the grammar test last year. What a horrid experience for a 10 year old. 4 hours of testing only to not get in (4x more children tested than places). Brilliant for self esteem. (We didn't train (made a decision not to) our child to pass, what's the point if they can't keep up when they're there?). Now the top achievers (or those whose parents pay for private schools/tutoring) are creamed off- it affects the balance/range across other local schools.

retyped- minus typos.

I am not a Tory (just to be clear).

A few weeks ago I found a breast lump. I could not get a GP appointment for a referral despite them knowing why I needed one. I found the lump on Friday night- all weekly appointments are issued on Friday afternoon and get snapped up. It didn't meet the criteria for an emergency appointment.

I live in a pretty affluent (Tory) area.

I ended up paying to go to Nuffield. Lots of people cant afford to pay.

Champagne I guess there are Tory waverers (and the polls demonstrate this isn't a MN phenomenon) because people are realising that the country is in the shit right now because of Tory policy.