Staunch Tory wavering

[FuckyDuck]

So as title says, I have always been a staunch Tory supporter and I also voted leave in the EU referendum. I genuinely have the utmost faith in TM to deliver brexit to the best of her ability

BUT

the NHS & education...

JC is someone I could never respect but labours approach to the NHS and education seems to be far far better. However I simply cannot abide any of their social policies (my view on this is that EVERYONE who is physically and mentally capable of working, should, no one gets a free ride unless disabled/caring for someone who is)

Now I don't want Tory flaming but I need to decide whether the Tory economical and social policies outweigh Labours NHS plans and education policies. Can anyone help?

Not a lot to ask eh captain, just a simple explanation for a bold assertion!

I think people like the idea of grammar schools in principle because they always imagine they or their children would be 'smart' enough to go to one. It's like people earning low wages voting for Conservative policies because they feel like millionaires who are temporarily embarrassed.

Whereas the reality is that most kids won't go to grammar schools, the way kids who do are selected doesn't reliably reflect actual ability (so even if you have a smart kid they may not pass) - and most people do not earn so much that they actually benefit from lower taxes because they can afford to keep their money and not use public services such as the NHS and regular schools.

I need to know what he wants from Brexit.

Do you know what the Tories want from Brexit? I've seen 'vote Tory to guarantee a hard Brexit' and 'vote Tory to give Theresa May a mandate to defy her backbenchers and deliver a soft Brexit'.

And I've seen TM say outright that she is willing to walk away with no trade deal which could be described as a batshit Brexit.

Mouse your description of Jc sounds more like trump to me!

I watched a video yesterday on YouTube by a woman in the US. Her 3 year old son has Muscular Dystrophy. His doctors recommended a particular medication, but her insurance company won't cover it until he is 5. So the health and well being of her son is determined by an insurance company, NOT the highly qualified medical professionals who are dealing with her son.

Is that the kind of system we want? The health of our children being judged on how much it costs rather than what is best?

Also, Social stratification is an ideology. Success in the education system is not based on talent or ability. Anyone who thinks it is needs to go and educate themselves instead of passively accepting Tory propaganda.

I would urge you to consider others OP. Or consider what would happen to your family should one of you get ill or become disabled.

amouse
agree with what you said

• too many inherently selfish people are swallowing unthinkingly the labour wild promises (which after all are what we all want for this country) but it is not feasible, not now (maybe never) and if labour win the country will be a laughing stock and more divided than ever

*A close family member is a senior public sector academic, they have spent decades working with the great and the good of this country, trying to solve all the problems all the parties claim they can fix.

They're not fixable.*

Ridiculous! You do know that not all academics agree on everything, don't you? Of course you don't have to come to terms with this, there are plenty of experts who do see a way forward instead of the doom and gloom scenario you have heard second hand.

You could vote lib dem op
You don't have to vote far right or far left

Have name changed because I want to go back to knitting patterns and The Archers after this bloody election.

We are absolutely torn. Live in Scotland, in a seat that had to be recounted last election as it was such a close result (SNP/Conservatives). I HATE the SNP with a passion which surprises me. I was planning on voting Conservative for the first time in my 50+ years, just to try and oust the SNP incumbent. There is no other party which will be able to get rid of the SNP. But, I can't bring myself to help the Conservative party get a majority in the UK so they can carry on with their destructive, divisive policies. So I will probably vote Lib Dem and waste my vote.

All I want is a country where children go to their nearest school (yes, I know this happens in Scotland - it's the rest of education here that's on its' knees), are taught to read, write, do maths, draw pictures, run races, learn about their country and the world, sing songs, be kind to each other, not worry what kind of trainers or hair accessories they need to fit in.

I want a country where the disabled, sick and vulnerable get the help they need without having to fight for it. I want our good health professionals to be respected and adequately rewarded for what they do.

I want our older children to have a choice of career path which means they do not have to go to university, but can choose an apprenticeship where they will LEARN a trade properly and thoroughly on a decent apprenticeship wage without being treated like 'gofers'. I want young people who don't go to university to be able to get a retail or clerical job at a decent wage where they can work their way up if they are willing to work hard.

I want people who earn millions of pounds every year to recognise that they are NOT worth this amount of money. They are not worth, in monetary terms, hundreds of times more than the people who work in their businesses. I want bankers to be held accountable for the decisions they make which cause millions of people to suffer hardship while they remain in their ivory towers swigging champagne and looking forward to holidays on their mate's superyachts. I want them to understand that it is not right to hide money offshore to avoid paying taxes which could fund our schools and hospitals. This also goes for corporations.

I want ordinary people to recognise that they have to take responsibility for their lives and the lives of their families, but to know that if everything goes tits up due to redundancy/ill health, they will be helped before they are on their knees.

Where are the men/women who are true, strong and inspiring leaders? I really can't think of anyone who could shake this country up and put things right and it makes me scared for the future.

too many inherently selfish people are swallowing unthinkingly the labour wild promises (which after all are what we all want for this country) but it is not feasible, not now (maybe never) and if labour win the country will be a laughing stock and more divided than ever angry

What is making you say that these promises are impossible? Because some politicians ahve told you so??

Have a look around you. There are places in the world that do exactely what JC is proposing. The NHS, the education, a benefit system there to help peole when they most need them.
If these countries can mange to find the money, why cant we? Why is it impossible forthee UK to acheive what others do? Is it because the UK isnt good enough or is it because there is no political will?

amouse Your explanation is the very

the labour wild promises

Which are the wild promises? They all seem to be things we have had in the past or that exist elsewhere. He's not promising a unicorn for every child. They are all things that can be achieved with political will imo.

Which are the wild promises? They all seem to be things we have had in the past or that exist elsewhere

We are always left in a financial mess after a Labour government. If they could do lovely things without messing up the economy then we would all vote for them. But it has never happened yet.

reason am voting for Labour. Does May really have an insight into other lives? Brittle personality? Panicky? Timid policy maker who doesn't engage with colleagues? Too frit to debate? Too dismissive to cost manifesto, or maybe not actually capable?
Let's make up some policy based on our broad concept once we get in power? Prepared to lie and lie simply to stay in power. Just another Tory.

I think Brexit is going to be disastrous for the economy, unfortunately. I don't see how it can't be, particularly as we're now coming out of the single market. And I'm honestly not a cheerleader for the EU - I'm hugely critical of the way it operates - but from a purely practical point of view, not being able to trade easily and smoothly with our main economic partners is going to knock our economy for six.

For that reason, whoever wins this election is going to lead the country into a deep recession - so in a way, it might just as well be May. She thinks she can get a good deal for Britain - well, let her cope with the fallout.

One more thing. When it comes to the NHS, education, social care, they all have to be paid for one way or another. All the main parties are struggling with the same problem. It comes down to whether you pay for those things out of general taxation or make people pay for them out of their own pockets (as per May's suggestion for social care). Personally I am happy to see the rich pay more tax and, more importantly, for the government to make sure that corporates stop dodging their tax obligations. But the point is that there isn't an easy solution that keeps everyone happy. The cost of looking after older people with long-term conditions like dementia is enormous. Someone is going to have to pay for it.

We are always left in a financial mess after a Labour government.

Like we are now?

We are always left in a financial mess after a Labour government.
Like we are now?

Precisely. Except that after seven years of coalition/Tories, I don't see it getting any better. Which is why I am wavering.

Personally I am happy to see the rich pay more tax

Yes, we all support that policy. Make the other person pay more tax, but not me.

I know a few people in your situation OP. The Conservatives have gone too far for them and as far as they can see, Austerity doesn't seem to have worked, just made a lot of people miserable. Only one I know is now voting Labour, the other two are voting Lib Dem as tactical votes for their area but are much more in favour of Labour's policies when compared to the Cons.

Corbyn and May have very similar personality profiles. Both think their view is right and don't listen to feedback. (see May's very unsuccessful time in the home office.)
The problem is the Conservative party aren't voicing any disquiet about her style and her far right policies. I'm naturally a floating voter, generally slightly left of centre.
Brexit is a done deal. We'll get what we are given. You only have to look at the Chinese view of us now as a practice country (parliamentary TV.)
I'm more worried about domestic policy and the Tories desire to run with austerity, which kills economies (and no its not like running a household budget).

My instinct is to vote Tory.

However, for me, Michael Portillo summed it up a few weeks ago. He said that there is a lack of political talent across the board.

We're not voting for the best, we're voting for the least worse. It's very subjective at this point who you see as a least worst.

My biggest fear is a hung parliament or coalition government. Then there will absolutely no clear direction.

Please don't waver OP. Labour will run the economy into the ground with their spend spend spend policies and there won't be any money left for the NHS or schools!

purits: "Yes, we all support that policy. Make the other person pay more tax, but not me."

What makes you think I'm not rich?

But let's look at the alternatives: poor people pay more tax. Or nobody pays more tax, and everyone has to fend for themselves. So, a 70-year old woman, say, who lives in rented accommodation, has no savings and only lives on a state pension, develops dementia - she has to pay for her own social care for the next five years. Even though she has no money. What do you do then?

We are always left in a financial mess after a Labour government. If they could do lovely things without messing up the economy then we would all vote for them. But it has never happened yet.

I dont know about you but 7 years with the Conservatives doesnt seem to have left us in a very good place either... I mean poverty has increased, the NHS is totally run down, no money for social care, no money to help the most vulnerable (incl the disabled, children with SN or people with MH issues) and plain hard work for any worker with the increase of zero hours contract, companies expecting people to be self employed to avoid paying too much, a fear reduction of buying power as well as the population overall geting poorer (well bar the richest who have got richer of course), housing crisis etc etc.

Yep that sounds like a great result for seven years of Tory policies. NOT.