Staunch Tory wavering

[FuckyDuck]

So as title says, I have always been a staunch Tory supporter and I also voted leave in the EU referendum. I genuinely have the utmost faith in TM to deliver brexit to the best of her ability

BUT

the NHS & education...

JC is someone I could never respect but labours approach to the NHS and education seems to be far far better. However I simply cannot abide any of their social policies (my view on this is that EVERYONE who is physically and mentally capable of working, should, no one gets a free ride unless disabled/caring for someone who is)

Now I don't want Tory flaming but I need to decide whether the Tory economical and social policies outweigh Labours NHS plans and education policies. Can anyone help?

Hope you are ok Rhino

As regards the NHS you have to listen carefully to what some tory MPs have really been saying. Bevan said healthcare should be free at the point of entry. I have heard this said several times in the last few weeks by leading Tories. It made me believe even more that AE will only be the one thing free in our health service under the Tories. They will say that they are sticking with Bevan's philosophy. Social care has been semi privatised for years with private agencies supplying community carers. These companies are partly to blame for bed blocking as the majority of them are refusing to take council referred clients because they only get £10 an hour from the council, but they can get £22 an hour from a private client. Hence a lot of people waiting in hospital to get care in their home. 6 months ago May was asking different insurance companies in their thoughts for an insurance for social care. 3 months ago May piloted the breakfast scheme for primary children in Blackpool. The privatisation of the NHS and Social Care has been on Mays agenda for a very long time. It really will happen. The Tories have withdrawn 12 billion in the last 4 years from social care alone. They are underfunding the NHS so it actually breaks like the social care system so they can privatise it. The only winners will be those that invest in the private companies and those that can afford private health and social care insurance. The majority of people will not afford it. Look at America, how many people there have no health insurance? I am not scaremongering but am genuinely worried about the future for the majority of people in this country.

I have wavered, Mays campaign has been abysmal, you would think she didn't want to win.

I'll still vote Tory though. Theres no credible opposition.

Gosh lots of wavering tories on MN in last few days perhaps all too young or selectively amnesiac to remember the winter of discontent

I've done my reading. I also remember black Wednesday

I also remember the years of thatcher. As a child, to a mother who was severely ill we were left to rot.

So yes I remember. But last time I checked, we have had seven years of the Tories and I am yet to see the divide between rich and poor decrease.

In fact, when was our last period of sustained economic growth? And where is the proof that the Tories are good at managing the economy? If they manage it like a household budget then no wonder we've seen no improvement in 7 years.

Why are so many eating up the tough brexit negotiations waffle? It's just a meaningless line, no substance to it. It's what the tories seem to be relying on now- clinging onto the leave voters and hoping people won't notice they've got no evidence to back up TM negotiating anything successfully and no one can know what she will be attempting to negotiate anyway. JC as the more honest and moral politician would probably be better at forming relationships anyway, rather than this hostile hard line act TM is trying to put across which will just put people's backs up. Many leave voters voted leave because they believed it would help the NHS... its labour who will do this too.

Also I would be very careful about ideas that
' Tories are good for the economy'
Or 'Labour will just spend so much more money and increase the debts'.

So far, the Tories have increase the debts during their 7 years in porthe economy hasn't done brilliantly whilst all state services/help have declined.

Our economy in the last year has gone downhill, the UK being the worst performing economy in the developed countries. In par with Italy but way way down compare to Canada, Germany or France.
When a year ago, we were at the top.
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-worst-performing-advanced-economy-world-post-brexit-slump-election-pound-sterling-a7766286.html
I have to say, it doesn't make me confidentbthatbthe way TM is choosing re dealing with Brexit (the dal or no deal) is going to be the best one for the country and our economy.

How can anyone respect someone who cannot even be bothered to turn up and debate her "policies", if she has any proper ones, with other party leaders?

She isn't strong and stable. She is wishy washy.

Also can someone saying tories are better for the economy please explain that? To me it seems to mean they're better at cutting services (whilst still borrowing).
It just sounds like another line that has been repeated so often people believe it, or people have been struggling and want to believe it's worth it, when the reality is that the poor and needy are being given less and less; surely a growing strengthening economy would be reflected by the poor and needy being better looked after?

I actually really really like the return of grammar schools (no I didn't go to one myself)

I used to think like this because I was one of the bright ones at school and went to a rubbish comprehensive BUT I now live in a grammar school area. I have just been through the brutal and demoralising process of being told my DCs (twins) are not good enough for the 11 plus test. They are secure in all their subjects at school and some of their scores were high enough but not the aggregate score. In other words I have to pay for tutoring like all their friends parents are doing to be in with a chance.
This policy plays well with the country because parents of bright kids assume they would benefit from it and older people like it because they all want to return to the fifties anyway.
The few benefitting at the expense of the many is what the Tories are all about. Don't make the mistake of assuming you'll be one of the few!

The only thing keeping me voting Tory is that our MP is so good. Otherwise I'd be voting lib dem

Hope you are ok Rhino

I am - it was a cyst and the biopsy has just come back as clear. Have a family history of breast cancer- including several who died.

If I hadn't paid I would have had to wait a week in the hope that I could have got an appointment when I phoned up the following Friday. That appointment could have been up to a week away. So a minimum of 10 days and possibly 2 weeks of waiting just to see a GP. Of course I may have been unable to get an appointment the next week either.

I work and would have had to get someone to cover whilst I called On Friday- can take an hour based on previous experience- and didn't really want to share this with colleagues.

That cant be acceptable.

Why do they think that? About Starmer? I don't want a soft give everything up Brexit. What woyld Starmer deliver?

I'm a bit puzzled at the idea that Labour wants to give people a "free ride". I don't think that's the case.

Obviously everything has to be paid for one way or another. For example, if you want to put money into schools, you may have to raise taxes to do that. People will grumble about that. On the other hand, you can cut school budgets - as the government is currently doing - and then headteachers ask parents to contribute funds.

In schools where they can't raise enough funds from parents, then teachers and other staff will be made redundant. The consequence of that could be teachers claiming benefits, or teachers doing low-paid part-time jobs. What that means then is that those teachers pay less in tax and they spend less in the shops which has a detrimental impact on the economy.

It also means that children's education suffers and that has a knock-on effect too, of course, in terms of fewer children going to university, or more children behaving badly and perhaps ending up in petty crime and so on. And what happens to children with special educational needs if they don't have the more individual attention they require?

So it's impossible to separate social policies from economic ones. In fact, May has said this herself - she keeps saying that by making the economy stronger she will be able to put more money into the NHS. But the causal relationship works both ways.

The one thing that I had done respect for recently was the social care debate. And then they completely back trackers of course. Social care costs are crippling and people need to accept there need to be changed. Ignoring this won't help. Maybe the Tory policy was flawed but it's a step in the right direction. Also I massively respect them for saying they will be getting rid of the triple lock and means testing winter fuel allowance. There are pensioners in poverty and rich pensioners, let's not pretend they have the same needs. I don't get child benefit for my son, pensioners on a similar income shouldn't get winter fuel.

NHS the same. Yes I think it needs more money but the labour approach of just pouring money in is the wrong one I feel. We need a real debate and a real strategy. (Not sure how it'd be implemented and it's probably impossible but people attending a&e for non emergencies need to be charged to stop them. Likewise people going to their GP for a cold to demand antibiotics. I know people who do this and it makes me furious.) I wish a party would come out and want to discuss things honestly because there are a lot of hard truths that we all need to face.

The NHS is the deal breaker surely? The Tory government are destroying it, and not even getting a good deal in the short term.

tompride.wordpress.com/2017/05/01/scandal-as-nhs-plasma-supplies-sold-off-by-tories-for-230-million-sold-on-to-chinese-for-820-million

Unless you are happy with the thought that in the future your daughter may have to sell her house if she requires medical treatment (as happens in the USA) then surely you would vote to stop the destruction of a health service that was, until recently, the envy of the world.

Why do they think that? About Starmer?

I guess it's because he used to be head of the Crown Prosecution Services, and David Davis used to work for Tate and Lyle...

But so what? noble. I'm not trying to be goady, but that doesn't help me if his idea of negotiating Brexit is different to mine. I need to know what he wants from Brexit.

Can someone explain to me why exactly the Conservatives are good for the economy?

that EVERYONE who is physically and mentally capable of working, should, no one gets a free ride unless disabled/caring for someone who is)

That's what all the parties believe in. I'm not sure why you think Labour doesn't agree with you on this.

Captain I thought you were going to answer my question then but it seems we both want to know!

I actually really really like the return of grammar schools (no I didn't go to one myself)

The "return of the grammar schools" is misleading. It should be called "the return of the secondary modern" as most children will be getting this.

Sorry crepe I didn't realise you'd already asked!

I keep hearing this from people voting Tory and I want to know what exactly they're doing that means they are 'good for the economy' when Labour are not seen to be. Is it the recession under Labour? Is it Tories not spending on public services? Is it employment going up?

I'd just like a nice explainer from someone voting Conservative on what the Tories actually do that benefits or means they're trusted with the economy.

A close family member is a senior public sector academic, they have spent decades working with the great and the good of this country, trying to solve all the problems all the parties claim they can fix.

They're not fixable. Cutting more, hosing money, whatever, there is no solution that doesn't involve letting sections of the population down.

So once you've come to terms with this, who do you want to be in charge?

Personally I think that Jeremy Corbyn is incapable of leading his party effectively, doesn't have any understanding of my life and is probably a danger to international security.

Theresa May should have turned up yesterday, she's not going to be able to dodge difficult situations whenever she feels like it if she continues as pm. But I don't think she's as potentially destructive as Corbyn.