so embarrassed Year 2 son!

[Ohcrapbag]

I have two sons, one is now in secondary and the other year 2.
September born so one of the eldest but has always been quite immature compared to his peers, preferring to run around playing football or out on his bike than to playing complex games on computers and so on.
He's just under where he should be academically which has always been put down to poor concentration and not really having an interest in reading for instance.
He's very lively and since starting reception has had many tellings off for boisterous behaviour within his friendship group ( 4 of them all very similar ) however it's all come to a bit of a head now as the teacher has called me in for the following reasons -
Him saying " I don't want to / I already know this / I'm not interested in this / my parents won't care about this ( when she told him we wouldn't be happy with him not listening ) " and generally just being very cocky and rude to her.
Also being silly in class to get people to laugh however most are not laughing and just think he's stupid
Not concentrating in class whatsoever so doesn't know what work he's meant to be doing when it's time for independent learning
Reading level is 2 below the books he reads at home as he doesn't focus at school when she reads with him
She said there seems to be a lack of respect
I'm really embarrassed. We've been more positive parent types I suppose and we're always proud of our children for having an opinion and a voice, for not following the crowd or trying to fit it and being happy an individuals however she said it's not being assertive, just rude and wants us to agree on something he loses of an evening for poor behaviour in class.
At home he is kind and considerate, very active which we've always just accepted so spend lots of time trailing through woods and so on but no bad behaviour as such.
She asked if we had noticed anything at home but other than not wanting to read with us and telling his football coach he already knows how to play football a few times when doing his lessons I can't think of anything at all.
Is this just a phase? She seemed really annoyed; usually very smily and jokey but not today.

Sounds like your son is struggling at school and hasn't quite got the social norms right around social interaction (peers and teacher).

I'd be investigating things that might be making learning difficult for him, practice some social situations in role play, and keeping him as active and happy as he currently is at home. I think it would be a mistake at this age to punish him at home because of perceived rudeness at school until you've got a clearer picture of what is going on.

I'm not commenting on you, Trifle, only the couple of bad teachers he's had (and those he avoided). It does kids no favours to absolve them of all responsibility for their behaviour. However it also does teachers no favours to make no effort or allowances for a kid who is struggling. There is likely a reason they struggle to sit still or listen or work faster. My ds's teacher recently told him an answer in SATs and HE felt incredibly guilty about it. That's because he's been made to feel like he is the problem at school.

MerryMarigold

And I don't mean to sound as if I know what your son's teachers were doing. Obviously I don't. But I find your language revealing as to what the issues might be: "make allowances". I am constantly being asked to "make allowances" for bad behaviour. I don't. The reality is that it does the child no favours in the long run. At all. Children need form boundaries, not leniency leading to ingrained bad habits.

*firm

We are quite positive parents but rudeness to rhe teacher I wouldn't be happy with
Would a teacher be very concerned about this kind of attitude generally?

Perhaps your ds2 is no trouble at home because you tailor your activities to suit his preferences? But it is a school's job to educate. To let the behaviour of one child interfer with the efficient education of the other pupils would be grossly negligent.

The teacher is correct. Behaviour must be modified to suit a group setting. Ds2 has to learn that there will be still, quiet, book focussed times, as well as outdoor activity times.

Regarding rudeness ds2 clearly needs to understand he does not know everything and his opinions are unwanted unless asked for. Better to rackle this now at 7 than wish you had when you have a mouthy 14 year old on your hands.

I would suggest however reward rather than punishment. I would say to him that when he has read to you or completed whatever schoolwork set, he will be rewarded by going to the park. Pattern politeness and thoughfulness yourself and praise him for being polite and thoughtful. That way he will grow to see that this 'good' behaviour brings it's own rewards.

However it also does teachers no favours to make no effort or allowances for a kid who is struggling.

This sounds reasonable, but sometimes making endless allowances actually sets up and reinforces low expectations for that child.

I once taught a kid who had several diagnoses, and also a lot of behaviour issues. He was nearly unmanageable in lessons, and lots of allowances were made in terms of work, behaviour management and so on to try to keep him in the classroom. Then one day I was observed by the head. This kid sat quietly in his chair all lesson and powered through more work than he'd done all year. When the chips were down, he absolutely could behave himself and do the work.

I know, it's such a fortune line to tread between making allowances and having firm boundaries. For example, ds1 nervous the weekend before SATs, some bad behaviour. Do you lay into him or'make allowances'. This wouldn't involve ignoring the behaviour but probably a lesser consequence than a normal day. Other ds (2) broke his leg. Usually v active. He'd be swimming twice a week, football twice a week, athletics twice a week bit could do none of it. Do you make allowances for behaviour borne of frustration eg. Studying his brother up on purpose. Or would you give the same punishment as if via leg wasn't broken and he didn't have to miss out on so much. It's tricky, a line in constantly treading, but yes, I do believe in some allowances. I didn't personally have many growing up abs bout sure it was healthy to feel my mum had no empathy for me.

Grrrr sorry for all mistakes. I do feel passionately about this. And maybe it's more about showing empathy and understanding than anything else. Child's A may find it v easy to sit still, Child B may find it hard. Do you praise child A every fine they manage to do something easy for them and punish child if he struggles sometimes? Does everyone have the same standard or do we let child B off a bit of wiggling on Friday because he's managed all week. Giraffe in terms of your situation with that boy, I expect it till a lot if effort but was possible. I don't parent my kids a if I was on a tv programme all the time. I may manage it for a week, but it would be exhausting abs not maintainable.

Yes it might have taken lots of effort but the difference between his usual behaviour (totally disruptive) and his behaviour with the head in the room (totally compliant) made it obvious that a lot of his behaviour was a choice.

In terms of making allowances for behaviour, to some extent these frustrations can be anticipated and managed, not by lowering boundaries, but by making adjustments to make meeting expectations easier. I might have a student with ADHD who struggles with sitting and concentrating so I make sure they are the ones who hand the books/worksheets out and collect them in. I sit them away from the window near the front and I prompt them regularly.
If I teach a class last lesson on a Friday, I plan that lesson differently to first thing on a Monday. I don't expect them to learn something new, we might do consolidation, maybe a more practical activity, book a computer room and so on.

Your boy with the broken leg should not be allowed to take out his frustration on his brother, but he might be allowed to do things that he wouldn't ordinarily like play X-box on a school night, or I'd arrange for friends to come over.

I have read most of the thread and I think OP that your DS HAS been rude but I also supsect it comes from a place of not knowing how rude he is being.
MY DS has an ASC. One of the things he has been in trouble for, both at primary school and now at secondary (he's 12) is being 'rude' or speaking to people in an inappropriate tone of voice. At home if he speaks to me in a tone of voice that could be construed as 'rude' I point ti out to him. He generally sighs, apologises and tries again. He speaks his mind. However I am trying very hard to teach him that, when it comes to teachers and people in authority, it is generally a good idea to count to at least 10 before telling them they are wrong or what ever.
Your DS may not have a grasp of social norms yet and this is a good point to work with school to teach him.
My DS will often say he is good at something or already knows how to do x,y or z. I have discovered that this is often when he is feeling at his most unconfident.
My DS also truely believes that he is equal to adults. he believes this no matter how often I remind him that, yes, there is a pecking order and no, he is NOT at the top! He was protesting the other day that one of the teachers he didn't have for lessons was trying to tell him what to do. I pointed out that she was totally in the right to do that, it was, in fact, her job and he needed to obey her as long as the request was reasonable. He was nonplussed and asked why I had never told him this before. he has since asked me to clarify that ALL teachers are above him in the pecking order......
OP, I am not for one minute trying to diagnose your son with anything. It totally irritates me when a child behaves badly and people instantly say oooo have you thought about...... BUT it seems as if he does need you to teach him that there are things you say and things you don't. It's ok to have an opinion but it's not OK to express it rudely or to ignore his teachers.
My DS knows he has an ASC. he also knows that we believe this means it is a reason he finds things difficult and a reason he has to work harder than others to fit in. He knows it is in NO WAY an excuse to be rude or disruptive and that I will not tolerate either.
I hope you are able to work withb his teacher to sort this out and help your wee boy be the amazing wee soul he has the potential to be.

MerryMarigold

Truly, no, I wouldn't make allowances in those situations. I would tell the child that I understood their frustration, but the consequence is the same because learning to control your behaviour includes when you are frustrated. It is a sad fact that if you excuse poor behaviour on X grounds, the child will expect you to excuse it on Y grounds. You can be empathetic but still quietly insistent on certain standards of behaviour.

I would tell the child that I understood their frustration, but the consequence is the same because learning to control your behaviour includes when you are frustrated.

What about when they are anxious, overloaded or exhausted?

What if they are struggling enormously all of every day in school but mask their difficulties so you don't see the evidence most of the time?

Consequences don't magically give a child skills to cope. If they can't do it, they need help and support to develop those skills, not to be punished for something they cannot control or don't understand is socially unacceptable.

Teachers who dig their heels in and insist that all children have to behave exactly the same, no matter how hard it is, can cause untold damage to children with additional needs, especially during the pre-diagnosis period.

I hope you are really careful not to impose consequences unless you are certain that the child has the skills to conform to what you want at that particular time.

I framed it as 'you need to help the teacher do their job' for my DC. That is 'you don't talk while the teacher is talking, it is distracting', you listen when the teacher speaks otherwise you'll miss information and he/she doesn't have time to repeat it'. For your DS you could add 'think about the rest of the people who do need to learn stuff, they are there to listen to the teacher, not you'.

It might help to explain that there are always going to be occasions in school when he is taught stuff he already knows. That is because he is in a class of 25, not a class of 1. If everyone kicked up a fuss when they were taught something they already knew, the teacher would spend all their time dealing with fusses rather than teaching. If he knows the stuff he should keep quiet and be pleased as he'll shortly get 100% and show everyone how great he is at it.

Goldmandra

Most bad behaviour could be linked back to a cause. It remains bad behaviour, and allowing children too much leeway when it comes to bad behaviour is bad for them, in the end. I am perfectly happy to make allowances in real extenuating circumstances, but most of the time we aren't talking about that. Let's also be clear that I am talking about the majority here, not those with additional needs that place their behaviour beyond their control.

The problem with additional needs is that teachers don't know enough nor have the time to deal with them. They aren't always obvious especially when at the edge of spectrums, or combining issues. It transpired my son has vvv slow processing. The assessors were amazed he managed to keep up with average. This is because he works v hard and is a people pleaser. Believe me, if ds2 had his issues he would have been in far more trouble (unless he'd also had the confidence well and truly knocked out of him). Even I, as his parent, don't know his issues just that he is different from my other two and does need more 'understanding', compassion. He's already headed toward mental health territory (kids pick up on the fact teachers pick on someone and do the same). You can't be so arrogant to assume you know there are additional needs because of a piece of paper.

MerryMarigold

Eh? Did I say I anything like that? What is arrogant about my suggestion that I will treat children according to the same standard in the classroom, unless there is evidence that they need particular adjustments? That evidence might be a diagnosis or it might be my knowledge that a particular need is suspected and being investigated. However, as other posters have said, strategies for supporting students with additional needs are strategies to help meeting expectations easier for them. I am never asked by our SENCO, for example, to 'show compassion' or 'be understanding' as an adjustment. It is always made crystal clear that the policies apply to everyone.

has always been quite immature compared to his peers, preferring to run around playing football or out on his bike than to playing complex games on computers and so on

I'm stunned you think that participating in what seems to be a healthy outdoors lifestyle is seen as immature. Many parents would pray for a child who ran around outside instead of playing on the XBox all day. I don't understand your reasoning/thinking at all.

As for the other things, yes, he is rude in school.

I'm sure you're not. And therein lies my son's problem. Just trying to give you another perspective about where certain attitudes can take certain children. My son has been hurt. I'm sure there were also judgements on my parenting.It was interesting when my other kids joined the school and were immaculately behaved how attitudes changed somewhat.But a bit late as there is a 3yr age gap.

MerryMarigold

What do you expect from schools? I am responsible for 30 children at one time. I am responsible for their safety as well as their progress. If I ignored school rules for every child whose parent requested 'understanding', what do you think would be the outcome? Serious question.

Aren't you talking about completely different ages though? Everyone knows that teenagers like Trifle teaches can try it on, whereas early primary school kids usually want to please unless there are issues.

PaleAzureofSummer

I totally disagree with that. Children of course want to please, in the main, but if they have been taught the lesson that poor behaviour is basically irrelevant (will be overlooked/explained away) some of them will very quickly struggle to see the benefits to behaving well, compared with doing what they want. They don't magically start misbehaving once they attend secondary. Many of the Y7s I teach have clearly missed out on some formative discipline - they literally will not stop talking for five seconds, and take any opportunity available to disrupt class. I can't help but think something was missing in terms of teaching them about appropriate behaviour.

Tell the school to let him do more running and less sitting still, I bet that helps.

Yes it does sound like things have got a lot worse in recent years.

Trifle

We are talking about a yr2 kid here. They're completely different from a yr 6 kid. The type of attitude you're talking about becomes a bit more prevalent from my understanding maybe towards the end of yr4 and definitely by yr6. Some Yr6 children can tend to get quite cocky being the eldest at the school. I totally agree that discipline does need to be instilled in children early on for teaching to be effective in secondary. And I agree with PaleAzure that at age 7 ops ds will want to please the teacher. This is borne out by his distress when he discovered he'd upset them.

By yr7 a child knows darn well whether or not they've upset a teacher unless perhaps if they have additional needs. So there's a lot of growing up to do in between ops ds and the children you see starting yr7. If we put that into context, he hasn't yet completed 3 years of school and still has more than 4 years to go.