to think my 5 year old is ahead academically?

[hollyvsivy]

I'm not posting to boast and my daughters happiness is far more important to me than her academic progress. This is why I found it frustrating that at parents evening tonight her teacher told me she's working at around the same level as most children her age, because my DD is thoroughly bored at school. She has just turned 5 and is in reception.

She's on stage 5 reading books at school but can read stage 6 at home. Her real strength is in maths, though. She can read up to six figure numbers. She can add numbers in their thousands. She understands and can do short multiplication (discovered when she joined in with her big sisters homework.) She knows some times tables and can easily halve and double numbers in her head. She will often sit and write numbers correctly formed and in the correct order to 200+. Then she brings home homework which questions like 4-2 so I just don't understand how her teacher can say she's average when she could've done the current homework years ago.

Of course I don't want to be pushy at 5, but equally I don't want her to be bored and lose enthusiasm for numbers in particular. AIBU to think her teacher is selling her short? I've seem her workbooks at school and know she's independently writing big sums at school so her teacher has definitely seen she can do it and that I'm not a fantasist!

Does your DD have a formal diagnosis?
Does your DD's school have a SENCO?

If yes to both, then please make an appointment to see the SENCO and explain everything and ask how the school can help your DD.

Firstly if she's not happy socialising then the chance for her to have some time inside school at playtime or lunchtime each day (one or the other) may benefit her, give her some time to have the peace to calm down if she's finding the classroom environment stressful.

Ask if your DD can be given more advanced maths work. I don't believe that leaving her to just float about on that level when she is more capable is any good for her. Her boredom and frustration will come out in meltdowns and further, the boredom will mean she will never be pushed and may struggle further down the line if she finds maths so easy now. She may just think she will never have to make any effort to learn in this subject.

I would offer to take your DD to watch the trampoline thing. Say there's no pressure, she just gets to look and you can leave when she wants. That way she can sort of size it up and see if she wants to have a go.

My DD is being assessed for autism. She loves swimming, athletics and martial arts. All solitary activities which are non-competitive but she really gets so much out of them. She also does kayaking, cricket and rounders (hockey and netball in winter months). She seems to have endless energy and if it's channelled into something physical she seems to have less meltdowns. Don't get me wrong, she still has them but she is now 11 and definitely I find it easier now she's a bit older.

poor wee kids...d they know what 2 times means?

I remember being advanced in maths for my first two years, being given work for the year above, and then being made the redo all this the next year- I was so bored and lost interest in school, then dance, then everything else!

I'd definitely recommend buying her work books etc and keeping her interested and maybe a meeting with the school, you want her to go on the reach her potential and not be held back!

I read some people adamant that having ASD her social skills are really important.

I interview fine for jobs, I know the emphasis I need to make in group activities. When it comes to actual work I'm not big on joining in the office gossip or talking for the sake of talking. I'd rather get on with the task at hand.

I don't think that being on the ASD spectrum means you'll necessarily fail interviews. I know my siblings who are affected a bit more than me say they wish they had my confidence when it comes to applying for jobs. They've stuck at what they knew and the routine they knew. They still converse at work, our issues are likely opposite, because they're somewhere they feel safe they get on ok. Socialise fine. But I don't know if this is linked to ASD they use addictive substances on nights out or drink till they lose inhibitions. 2 siblings are still at home, they're a bit like me in that they'll play on gaming networks as they have the safety of their rooms, they can chat fine. When they upgraded consoles, they as in their group, they knew my sibling couldn't afford to upgrade so they all put money together to get them the console and game so they could still join in. To me that was an amazing gesture.

I don't think a young ASD diagnosis, unless they're none verbal, should mean you have to worry. Even several non verbal children with ASD are in main stream school. DS plays with some at break, and he shows them interesting things. He can do makaton, he's teaching DD it as she's got children in her year that are none verbal.

Ok verbal skills are good, but you can still be an introvert who doesn't fit the life & soul of the party stereotype. But they add things in their own way.

poor wee kids...d they know what 2 times means?

Well my usual test of understanding is putting it into a scenario of sweets. It's amazing the mathematical concepts that they know if they think their sibling is getting more than them ime.

Just to give an example, and it will sound as if I am boasting but I am not, I can tell you about DS2. I don't hothouse our kids, I have more than one Children and only the youngest is Gifted and Talented in Maths.

By the age of three he could do things like counting DOWN in threes (and count up/ down in 2, 3, 5). He could double five digit numbers in his head. He would say things like half of a half is one quarter, and half of a quarter is an eighth. He could convert Km into miles in his head, pounds into euros.

By the end of year 1 he could understand percentages, could transfer percentages into decimals, do tables on spreadsheets and do pie charts. All with very little input from us.

We knew that something was different when aged 3 he asked us what the largest negative number is.

So knowing the 2 times table is not completely out there, it is within the norm.

Well you are boasting Myschool but why not be proud of your ds's talent?
Knowing your 2x table in reception will very much depend on the school. A good school in a naice middle class area I think it would be the norm and there would be kids who can do a lot more. In a not so good inner city school, lots of children getting to grips with English as a second language let alone having to do Maths in Engish, high percentage of SEN etc it might be ambitious to be teaching it in year 1 for all but a few pupils.

Eh, not they're not. FFS.

But Myschool the fact that you have a child who's also out there doesn't mean that it's within the norm. Even if the norm is quantified as wide as 1st-99th percentile, it's perfectly possible for your child as well as OP's child to be outside it, and it's perfectly possible for your child to be 1 in 1000 and streets further ahead than a mere 1 in 100 - which still isn't what I'd call "within the norm". (NB made up figures)

Both my kids are autistic, elder son was way ahead with reading and was dropped down to lower reading group and I couldn't understand why. It turned out that although he could read perfectly well at home, he was less confident at school, especially when reading aloud. His nervousness would make him falter, mispronounce and although he is very intelligent he couldn't get things onto paper quickly enough, which gave the impression sometimes that the work was too much for him in general. Often he just can't write quickly enough because of motor issues.

Youngest is nursery age and is also ahead with reading and numbers, but never performs in nursery the same way she does at home. She tends to withdraw in busy or pressured situations, even though literacy and numbers is her main thing that she does at home for fun.

Could it be a confidence issue at school, or perhaps getting through the workload on paper at the same pace as the other kids is a problem? Sometimes it gives the impression that they are not 'ready' for that stage of learning, but it's other problems holding them up.

So knowing the 2 times table is not completely out there, it is within the norm.

Isn't everything within the norm? Or is being gifted abnormal?

Not that I am suggesting that knowing the 2 times table at 5 would make you gifted

Check out the charity Potential Plus UK it works to support children of all ages with high learning potential (used to be termed gifted and talented). They can provide support, advice including those children who have aspergers/autistic traits who have high learning potential in one or lots of areas.

To give some background, I'm a tutor so I see a lot of young children with a range of abilities. I would certainly say that your daughter is doing more than the vast majority of children her age. She may not be advanced as some of the examples mentioned on her but she is still doing very well.

We do see parents that have been told their child is of average or below average ability when they're clearly not - they just haven't be stretched sufficiently. However, playing devil's advocate, here are some of the reasons her teacher might have said she is average:

Many parents like their children to be on more advanced reading books, even when they're still struggling with the phonics and some of the words in the lower stage books. Most reading book ranges are designed to be read in order so skipping stages can be detrimental to the reader later on. If your daughter is having difficulty with the odd word in the Stage 5 books, her teacher may want to keep her on a lower level just to be thorough.

How is she able to apply her existing maths skills? Some children are very good at straightforward word calculations but struggle as soon as these are put into word problems. If your daughter's teacher is giving her a sheet of word problems involving simple calculations (like 15 - 6) and she's not getting 100%, this could be what she's basing her assessment on. In addition, if your daughter's very good at number but not so strong in recognising shapes or lines of symmetry, then her teacher may be looking at her ability across maths topics rather than simply arithmetic.

Also, if your daughter is bored in class, she may not be very accurate when completing questions that should be easy for her. If she's rushing through sheets, she may be making silly mistakes that do not reflect her true ability.

I would recommend continuing to challenge her at home and giving her plenty of real-world opportunities to apply her skills. Unfortunately, many schools need to cater to the majority so pushing children at the top end just isn't a priority. If a child is making simple mistakes that don't reflect their underlying ability, it's also difficult for teachers to dig past this and get to the root of the problem.

I'm fairly certain that teachers should give a parent an honest opinion of their child's progression and ability, but, this is only what they witness in the classroom setting.
Many years ago I was told that my ds had poor coordination, something I was quite shocked by as he was very talented in most sports that he played, he had a natural ability to play sport with good eye, ball, hand/foot coordination at a very young age. Apparently he could not do "head, shoulders, knees and toes" as well as other children in his year. On questioning my ds he told me that "head, shoulders, knees and toes" was for babies and didn't want to do it.
At 8, I was told he couldn't read at the expected level. Another shock, he seemed to be perfectly able to read the Spurs match programmes that our neighbour gave him! He just wasn't that interested in the books at school.
Remember the teacher's opinion is a reflection of what is seen in the classroom. If your child is able to achieve a higher level at home, ask the teacher to ensure she is challenged in the classroom setting if this can be accommodated, and more challenging homework too.
I'm pleased I allowed ds to progress naturally doing the sport he enjoyed and reading material he enjoyed. He is a very well rounded and happy individual with a reasonably paid job now.

OP when you say the teacher says she is average, are you talking about the teacher giving her the 'expected' level as part of her EYFS profile?

If that's the case, sometimes odd things happen in some schools that aren't necessarily to do with the teacher. It isn't completely unknown for the SLT in some schools to ask YrR teachers to lower the profile results because exceeding can make it difficult to show progress across KS1.

That's not necessarily what's happened. But it is another possibility.

Our DS has Aspergers and was years ahead of his peers in Maths, which theoretically sounds great. It isn't. He doesn't interact well with people and High School, for all our efforts, wasn't great. Look at enrichment with her Maths perhaps to keep her interested but remember that she is in school for more than just that. For DS Maths and Physics comes naturally but many other things don't and being on the Autistic Spectrum presents challenges later on in school when you need to explain your reasoning & get more marks for the method than getting the right answer. Plus he's a full grown adult with a degree and yet can't hold a pencil right!

Do you not think every child is advanced (in their parent's eyes) at that age? My son was born in the middle on the year so he started school three month after turning 4 years old. When the health visitor did a check before starting school, she sat with her jaw in the floor while my son built a tower of 12 blocks while reciting the alphabet at the same time. He started school knowing colours such as lilac, silver, mauve and cyan as well as all rainbow colours, but that doesn't mean he's any more advanced. At 13 he was diagnosed with dyspraxia. His mind works differently to others (lots of squirrel moments) but he's high functioning and is a whizz with numbers, loves sport and gaming but his writing is barely legible. If you were to meet him, you'd think he was quite 'normal'.

At such a young age as your child, they will soak up anything you teach them. That doesn't mean they will retain that information and learn how to properly use it. Also, there's a big difference between reading words and understanding what you are reading.

(Might be worth noting that I adopted my son who was actually born as high as a kite as his birth mum was a drug addict).

Reading isn't just about being able to know the words. You need to truly understand them. Check what your dd comprehension is like. Can she predict the story, or retell it? Can she discuss characters and relate to them? If she is an eager learner then she will fly at this stage and be classed as an appropriate level. I wouldn't worry as it will start to show in Year 1 and if she is exceptional, the teacher will see this.

I can't understand why the OP's DD - who does sound advanced in numeracy - can't have harder maths and still progress her social skills.

I have a very smart DD who's doing maths 3-4 years ahead. She's not on the spectrum but has been a bit shy. Doing harder maths has kept her engaged with school and hasn't used up all of her energy for socialising. She expends as much mental energy doing her maths as her more average friends do year-level maths. It's not disproportionately harder for her because she's good at it. Over time her social skills have improved and she's got lots of friends now but I see that as a separate thing to her mathiness. She's not hothoused, if anything she spends less time doing homework etc because it's easy for her.

The OP's DD may be on the spectrum but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't enjoy or benefit from academic work that's a better fit for her. The social side of things may always be harder for her.

She's ahead for sure and you're right to be concerned. Does the school have any sort of provision for gifted students? Mine is clever too but only linguistically. She struggles with maths. I think if she was streets ahead like yours is I'd want to make sure she was at a school where her needs would be met., It's very important that children are stretched and challenged academically whatever their level.

Being advanced in one particular area of Maths doesn't mean that she is advanced in all areas of Maths though

This.

Ds2 is 7 and extremely talented at procedural maths questions. Knows all his tables up to 12 so you can fire any random multiplication question at him and he can instantly answer with 100% accuracy. Can do long division and multiplication, addition and subtraction at any level, can work out percentages and decimals as well as me.

He still struggles with telling the time and measuring though. And makes silly mistakes on plenty of wordy maths problems, even when the mathematics involved is much easier than he's capable of.

oh dear - half term - preteens trying to troll

Knowing your sums and how to count to thousands is one thing, but if your kid can't apply them then it's probably memorisation and not a sign of true intelligence.

An example from my DNs - the 5 yo will use the fractions, ratios, and percentages info she learns at Kumon to share out cake and toys. The 7 yo uses geometry and physics to design and build stuff (play houses, chairs, go karts), and also programs and builds basic apps. The 8 yo is fluent in three languages in addition to the usual Indian ones (Hindi, Gujarati, Punjabi) we speak at home.

They aren't ahead of their peers either. They go to a really good school where pretty much all the kids do the same or similar. However ask any of them their timestables to 12 from memory and they can't tell you.