to think my 5 year old is ahead academically?

[hollyvsivy]

I'm not posting to boast and my daughters happiness is far more important to me than her academic progress. This is why I found it frustrating that at parents evening tonight her teacher told me she's working at around the same level as most children her age, because my DD is thoroughly bored at school. She has just turned 5 and is in reception.

She's on stage 5 reading books at school but can read stage 6 at home. Her real strength is in maths, though. She can read up to six figure numbers. She can add numbers in their thousands. She understands and can do short multiplication (discovered when she joined in with her big sisters homework.) She knows some times tables and can easily halve and double numbers in her head. She will often sit and write numbers correctly formed and in the correct order to 200+. Then she brings home homework which questions like 4-2 so I just don't understand how her teacher can say she's average when she could've done the current homework years ago.

Of course I don't want to be pushy at 5, but equally I don't want her to be bored and lose enthusiasm for numbers in particular. AIBU to think her teacher is selling her short? I've seem her workbooks at school and know she's independently writing big sums at school so her teacher has definitely seen she can do it and that I'm not a fantasist!

DS is about the same level but hasn't got the social issues. Personally I'd speak to the senco at school to see if they can help her with the social issues.
As for the teacher saying she isn't advanced I'd say that from what I can see from the eyfs they don't really assign levels anyway and you are either emerging, expected, exceeding so even if vastly ahead she can only ever get exceeding anyhow.
As for the reading, how is her comprehension?

I think the difference with my DS is that the school are saying he is ahead and pushing him though.

I always found play to be harder work than work, in school.

And why put so much emphasis on developing social skills? Yes, people on the spectrum can be encouraged to develop but why not prise them for the things they can do?

At 5 she is clearly numerically advanced- mathematically prob not- there is a lot more to maths than numbers as such. Does she grasp the ''mechanics'' as well? Can she perceive ( approximate) say 40g of flour looks like V 400g of flour If you were say baking fairy cakes?
Can she estimate? Can she understand the size of a number? Who she have any idea how many smarties there in a tube without counting them?

What is her writing like?, spelling? Composition? Can she write a story as well as read one? And understand what she's reading?

An her social skills? Does she play in the playground with other children appropriately? Have a good imagination? Play team games, understand taking turns, or waiting her turn?

If she excels in Number work, but lacks in other places, she is going to come out as 'average' I have no doubt her teacher knows she's good with numbers, but what about the rest of her education?

My now ex step son would read anything at about 6 ( Aspergers) Not a clue what half the words meant, but could read them all.

What is that word?
Reply '' Establishment''
What is an establishment?
Blank look

No idea!!

We picked very academic private schools from age 4 or 5. It worked very well. I worked full time so could afford fees of £10k a year. Have you considered that?

Far too early to tell. Quite common for kids to appear advanced at such an early stage, as the class will have quite a wide mixture where some kids have had lots of parental involvement helping to teach reading/maths etc., but others won't have had anything at all. So it's more a gauge of how much they've been taught outside the classroom rather than any indicator of ability. I think it's also a tough call for the teacher to get to know all their class and to start to evaluate who's at what stage. Rather than her being "average", it's more likely that your child isn't standing out to the teacher as being either at the top nor bottom of the ability range so maybe being invisible at the moment - "average" could be quite a large range in the eyes of the teacher.

But there's also the attitude of the teacher/school. "Some" teachers/schools don't really place much emphasis of the actual academic ability of the child, especially at very young ages, and concentrate more on other aspects such as social skills, interaction, play, music, singing/dancing, art, etc. ("Some" schools/teachers don't place much emphasis on academic aspects even at much older years but that's a different argument completely!!!).

Not RTFT but just wanted to share OP that my DD is very similar to yours also in reception, not autistic but struggles much more socially than the other kids. I am very much seeing this year as a time for her to have fun and work on her social skills, rather than progress with her learning. She reads her own books sometimes at home as finds stage 5 a bit boring/basic. Sometimes we 'play' sums on car journeys or at meal times but otherwise we don't do anything academic at home. In my opinion academic ability should be a very small part of a 5 year olds life. Even just playing with sand and water or painting should be stimulating, challenging and engaging for them and they can learn so so much through play

Hi OP. Your child sounds rather like me at that age (although I wasn't quite as advanced). We are having similar issues with DS(7). Here are my thoughts, which are heavily influenced by my own experience at school:

1. We don't push him with reading/writing at home. I wouldn't encourage him to do advanced maths etc. Anything that sets my child apart from the others during learning time is going to make life harder for him socially (it did for me). I have seen so many people who are academically bright but lack social skills and therefore struggle to pursue their life/career choices (myself included!).

1. We encourage him in other things at home. We do electronics, computer programming, den building and music. These stretch him intellectually and interest him. He's only going to be more bored at school if we do algebra etc at home first.

1. We help him find coping strategies at school. In class reading time he is in the same group as others. He reads the whole book (level8) then skips back when it's his turn to read a page. When I was at school I'd do the work fast then make up games to make the maths questions harder (e.g. square everything). Because he's not being challenged academically at school, DS has more energy to work on his social interactions.

1. We work hard on the social skills that are right for him. We've given up with school discos and films, but the school restarted a "friendship club" where a few similar kids meet one lunchtime for supervised play so they can learn some basic skills. Our conversations about school are mostly social - who said what to who, what was funny today etc.

We have seen excellent progress, and he now goes to school happy, without crying every morning! To conclude, I wouldn't worry too much about the teacher not knowing your DC's academic level (although she should), as at this age I think there are far more important things to worry about. I would work with the teacher on basic social skills and let the academic stuff come later, it surely will. Hope this is of some help.

I really think the major issue is getting support sorted out for her social difficulties rather than having the teacher give her KS3 calculations.
When the teacher said she was at the same level as the others for maths she probably meant overall. There may well be others in the class who aren't as good at calculating (all of them I expect!) but have talents for visualising patterns, great knowledge of shapes and their properties, can tell the time accurately etc.

I agree with others that you need to worry less about your DD's academic level and focus more on equipping her with skills to help her function in a NT world.

DS1 has a high functioning ASC/Aspergers diagnosis. Gifted he ain't! He's terrible at maths but slightly ahead of his peers with literacy. He appears to be a genius when when it comes to his specialist subjects because he has memorised massive amounts of information.

When he was 5 I wanted him to be stretched more in things he was doing well at school but came to realise that the focus needed to be on teaching social skills. His social skills have developed a lot but he doesn't learn them intuitively like other children. It requires lots of repetition of ideas and experiences by me and he finds it emotionally and intellectually draining.

It's good that your DD is having her meltdowns at home (her safe place for doing this) rather than at school. DS1 used to to massive meltdowns at home after school. Mainly because he's a good kid and he had worked really hard at keeping a lid on his anxiety and frustration all day. I've also learned that he had sensory issues I was unaware of because he didn't know how to articulate them when he was younger.

P.S. I think you've won this week's award for most threads started!

He's only going to be more bored at school if we do algebra etc at home first.

A very good point too! We tried our utmost to do different things to interest our son rather than let him get too far ahead. Obviously, we did reading, writing and basic maths with him at home long before he started school, but once he was there, we reigned ourselves right back and just let the school get on with that, for the first few years, at least. It also meant that we weren't teaching him something in a way that the school would have to "undo" if they taught it differently.

For my son, we taught him Spanish, as we took him on his first foreign holiday to Spain when he was about 5 and was fascinated by the signs and local speakers etc., so a natural interest just turned into proper learning with us buying him Childrens' books about Spain and their language. We wouldn't have encouraged that if the school taught anything about Spain - we already knew that they did a bit of French, and of course, secondary school is all about French and/or German, so it was pure enrichment for him to learn Spanish.

He also got himself into computer coding from a very early age which we couldn't help him with as neither of us had any usable knowledge nor experience in that.

May sound swot-ish, but he was still very sociable, had loads of friends all the time, well into football (played in the school team), etc. He just had no interest in the prancy-dancy kinds of thing that they seemed to spend far too much time on, nor the school plays etc.

He stayed ahead with his academic subjects throughout primary school, but luckily, there were a few others in the same boat, so there was quite a large "top table" and the teachers had to cater for them, though often the teacher would need a prod, especially when the homeworks were things he could have done a couple of years earlier, but always rectified for the next time, with a polite chat or email.

It's been said before, but do try nrich.maths.org. The "Live Primary" problems are often good fun, and kids can send in their answers (the best ones get published on the site). I find it particularly helpful for getting DD1 (7) to explain her answers.

Try "Noah" nrich.maths.org/136, which can lead to discussions about infinity :-)

Sorry I haven't read the entire thread so please forgive me if I am repeating information. I have a DC in year 1 who is very able, but doesn't get bored, her teacher provides 'chilli challenges' that are more difficult for the children and they can access them after/during main class work. She is doing well socially too however.

Could your DC be confusing emotions? Maybe she's describing being bored, but its more not enjoying things like her classmates, which she may battle with as part of her ASD for life.

Who diagnosed the ASD? Are the school aware of the diagnosis officially? I mean do they have the relevant paperwork to enable them to receive funding? Or have you just mentioned it? 5 is quite young to have a diagnosis and they may not have experience if it is a small school?
Did you quiz the teacher on what help is provided or make suggestions?
Perhaps during "free play" which makes up a large part of reception she could be provided year 3/4 maths worksheets? Or you could maybe send in a workbook which you think is appropriate? I would still however try to encourage social interactions as much as possible, some people with ASD never understand "normal" interactions but learn to mimic them and engage better in daily life as adults.

My dd has autism and his reading was exceptional, his understanding however was not.

So as he could read all about xyz, he could not answer why x did this or y said that, it was too much to process.
This disparity was explained to us when ds wasn't moving up levels but could read with his eyes shut.
They wanted the gap between his reading ability and understanding to narrow.

Having a diagnosis of autism certainly does make a difference op, things are not always so black and white.

Ds sorry not dd

I think OP that the yR is more focused on learning through play. The maths that the children learn is more integrated in the games played. Ds2, who was identified as G&T in maths in year 3, was ahead in yR but our focus was mostly on trying to help him with his social skills. He is not on the autistic spectrum but has Verbal Dyspraxia. I will always remember him coming home, me asking Did you learn any maths today, and him saying No, but we weighed and measured all the dolls and teddy bears...

As for the being bored aspect, please make sure that it's not a projection of your feelings. Is she r ally bored because the maths are not challenging enough? Really?

If your daughter is gifted in maths, give her time to adjust to school life and rules, encourage her with maths in every day life, and you will probably find that working together with the school to have the right assessment and support for her as opposed to working against the school and telling them that they are wrong will work better.

I think the teacher is not willing to put the work in to do the right thing by your daughter. Probably because teachers are massively over stretched.
IMO she should be having.
-Academic work that matches her ability.

• Structured and supported small group work where she can learn social skills such as turn taking, maintaining topics in conversation etc etc. Leaving her to her own devices is not going to work the gulf between her and her classmates will just get bigger.
• Visual and other autism specific strategies that will help her to not be breaking down the minute she leaves.
• A break out space to have some low sensory chill out time several times a day.
• You probably won't get it but that's what I'd be demanding.

Ok, I'm a ks2 teacher so used to teaching older children. I have taught several children with ASC who had great number/ arithmetic skills.

Without exception they were absolutely unable to apply these skills to even the most basic problem solving scenarios.

For example they could do long division in Y3 but if you asked I have 240 crayons and want to share them out between 4 children, how many do each child get? They just could not see how to apply what they have learnt. Having great arithmetic skills is useless really if you can't apply them to real life situations. The ability to do this will be developed greatly by working with smaller numbers in a practical way, verbalising thoughts and calculations.

I also find children often refer to things that they find had as 'boring'.

Another thought, if your daughter struggles with social skills, do you think she's confident showing what she can do at school? The teacher may not have seen her do things you have? Definitely have a longer chat with the teacher outside if parents eve. I would imagine that if she has a diagnosis of ASC she will be on an EHC? You should be included in meetings where this is reviewed and involved in discussions.

If your DD is melting down at home, this is not a good thing. It means she is struggling to hold everything together at school which will be extremely stressful for her. It shows that the school are not meeting her needs.

I think you need to have a meeting with the school to discuss how they can manager her needs better. For example, are there sensory issues, anxiety around the social side of things that they can help with. If the school meet her needs, she won't have to have these meltdowns at home as she won't be forced to 'cope' all day.

Without exception in the ASC children who I have taught and who had exceptional arithmetic skills... not without exception amongst child en with ASC generally. Sorry I wasn't too clear there.

And absolutely this is a small sample snd anecdotal.

And why put so much emphasis on developing social skills? Yes, people on the spectrum can be encouraged to develop but why not prise them for the things they can do?

100% agree with this. Yes, of course, they should be encouraged and nurtured, but at the end of the day, you can't force them to enjoy and thrive socially and the more pressure you put on them, the more they'll fight back against it if they don't want to.

Both my OH and I were "loners" at school. Even now in our 50s, we're "socially awkward", tend to avoid social events and try to avoid personal contact with others as far as possible. It's just how we were made. Yet, we've both had fulfilling and successful adult lives, both have good professions, both successful in the things we have chosen to do. It wasn't something diagnosed back in those days, but we now both identify ourselves akin to having aspergers now that we are aware of it. But it's not a disease, it's just a behavioural pattern. Now we are aware of Aspergers, it all makes sense, but that's all - it doesn't change who we are and doesn't change how we relate to other people. We're just different, full stop!

Just the other week, against all my natural inclinations, I found myself starting a campaign to save a village amenity that was threatened with closure. I'd normally shy away, but this was something I felt strongly about, so I stepped up to the mark. I did a lot of phoning around, emailing, setting up facebook campaign, etc., had a few meetings with local councillors. Culminating in addressing a public meeting in front of a few hundred people to kick start the campaign. All my natural instincts were screaming at me not to do it. But because it was important to me, I did it, made a damned good presentation and "socialised" with dozens of people afterwards, and the campaign is now thriving. Now, there's no way I would even have gone to a social event with that many people if it was something like a christmas dinner or party, and no way I'd have ever stood up and made a speech etc, nor chit-chatted with people I barely knew.

So basically, I learned a lot about myself - basically that I was more than capable of socialising and being the centre of attention, but that I simply didn't want to, not because I couldn't! Now I transpose back to my school years where I was always the "loner" and always criticised for not joining it, I see it was because I just didn't want to. Why is that so bad?????