AIBU to be grossed out ?Autogynaphila and Mrs Goss

[Pollypickypocket]

Not quite sure if my reaction is justified to be honest. Have just been in a conversation with a psychologist friend about feminism, trans issues and various theories of the advantages of gender rolls in evolutionary theory etc - wide ranging and pretty interesting as we are both gender critical but have differing views on biological aspects. He however raised the issue of late transitioning autogynaphils and how part of the fetish is being acknowledged as female/feminine/sexually attractive. I was sort of aware of autogynaphila but didnt honestly click what it ment or that it was a sexual fetish rather than an identity issue.
On Facebook I am member of Mrs Gloss a make up group and it's just occurred to me that its actually being used on occasion by autogynaphils to fuel their sexual fetishes if what he says is correct and it's really freaked me out to be honest.

exwife

I made a silent bet with myself that that would be your next question.

I made all my points upthread. The last third is you asking questions. I merely answered them.

Datun
Effectively, any man could claim transgender status to gain access to sex-specific spaces and services whether he genuinely thinks of himself as a woman or not and no matter how he dresses, and questioning his motives would be classed as a hate crime under the Equalities Act 2010.

Where have you got that from?

exWife
and the sources you have given, datun are not exactly impartial, are they? or even actually sources that bear out your assertions?

I was questioning some of your source choices too, Datun (The National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly in relation to reassignment surgery and autogynephilia - interesting).

This piece from Alice Dreger (writer, historian, bioethicist) seems a sensible, balanced and non-alarmist look at the subject of AGP:

alicedreger.com/autogyn

Datun
If my female gender stereotype means I like wearing dresses, I'm good at baking, nurturing, can do laundry, get paid less, am happy with being cat called, can't change a tyre and get talked over in meetings, then nope, I don't identify with it!

Gender does not automatically equate to gender stereotype.

It's an interesting read, but I wouldn't argue that it's impartial when it states...
"after transition, these individuals are women having sex with men"
"both of these developmental paths are perfectly legitimate ways to become women, and regardless of how someone becomes a woman, if she identifies as such, we owe her the respect of recognizing her identity and addressing her appropriately"

*Datun
Effectively, any man could claim transgender status to gain access to sex-specific spaces and services whether he genuinely thinks of himself as a woman or not and no matter how he dresses, and questioning his motives would be classed as a hate crime under the Equalities Act 2010.

Where have you got that from?

I supplied all the links in my comment. But it's referring to the implications of self identification.

The second link about AGP, although you might be cynical about the author, all their sources were referenced. It's incredibly difficult to get statistical information, particularly from the past. But I was asked.

Gender does not automatically equate to gender stereotype.

Yes it does, that's exactly what it means.

I've answered lots of questions about AGP, and supplied links. I've amswered lots of questions about the implications of self identification and supplied links. Anyone wants to refute anything else, or ask anything else, it's all there's on the Internet. But this is my viewpoint.

From a superficial point of view, changing the law to allow self identification, will allow more men with a cross dressing fetish (or any men) to access women and girls. That's it.

From a feminist point of view, the ideology itself reinforces gender stereotypes. It says that instead of everyone being able to wear what they want and present in any way they like, 'being feminine' must mean that you are a woman.

Feminists have been trying to rid themselves of this stereotype for hundreds of years. 'Acting like a woman' has been used to deny them vote (their brain is too fragile), had them incarcerated for being hysterical (because they left their husband) it has meant that they could not say that husband was raping them because that was the wife's duty (rape within marriage was perfectly legal until 1994). It's used to oppress. Over and over. Across history and geography. Millions of girl children aborted purely on the basis that they are female.

Feminist love the fact that men are delighted to wear dresses and make up. It's brilliant. It's debunking harmful gender stereotypes.

But when you say that those exact gender stereotypes mean that you must therefore be a woman, it only reinforces that they are for women. You're back again to women being the sum total of sterotypes.

I might add, gender dysphoria is a real and crippling illness. But you can loosely separate people with gender dysphoria from people with AGP. The former rarely claim they are women. They acknowledge they are men, despite it being uncomfortable. They aren't interested in the political agenda and the more outlandish claims like sex being a biological construct and feminist issues (the right to abortion, women's sexual health rights) being exclusionary. They just want to get on with their lives. Which I fully support.

feminist love the fact that men are delighted to wear dresses and makeup. It's brilliant. It's debunking harmful gender stereotypes.

come on now. you're talking bollocks.

Fascicle, that is how the CPS frames it, as a hate crime. Read the CPS pack for schools produced with transgender orgs.

That's all you are taking issue with, exWife? That feminists don't really want men to wear make up?

*exwife

Feminists want to abolish gender stereotypes. They don't want girly things to relate to women and macho things to relate to men. It's harmful for both men and women!

Look at my posts on the feminist board. How I have said how brilliant it was in the 80s when guys in full make up and wearing a sarong would be walking along next to women in torn jeans and a safety pin through her nose. We had a brief honeymoon period in the 80s when gender presentation was being blurred between the sexes. Not exclusive to them.

Women can easily wear men's clothes. Because it's punching up (the hierarchy). But men wearing women's clothes is viewed as wrong. Weak, cissy, gay as a slur.

If women were considered as equal to men, no one would view women's clothing as punching down.

Eddie Izzard said it brilliantly. When he was asked why he liked wearing women's clothes, he said they're not women's clothes they're my clothes. In our strictly gendered society, he managed to pull off an almost impossible feat. Wearing women's clothing, but making them neutral.

At the moment, if men wear women's clothing, there is an underlying motivation to it. It's not just a preference because they're comfortable, the colours are good. It's because they're 'feminine'. (This is probably where you're getting your viewpoint from. Wearing clothes purely because they are designed for women, is saying that women's clothes must be a certain way - which is anti feminist).

If masculine and feminine were less rigourously enforced, this wouldn't happen. Clothing, and the rules around them, are only a symptom of how society reinforces gender. But it's a fairly visual one as everyone has to wear clothes.

• visible not visual

When he was asked why he liked wearing women's clothes, he said they're not women's clothes they're my clothes

You do know Eddie is transgender now,don't you?

Orlantina

Yeah, I know. I don't really blame him.

Eddie Izzard said it brilliantly. When he was asked why he liked wearing women's clothes, he said they're not women's clothes they're my clothes. In our strictly gendered society, he managed to pull off an almost impossible feat. Wearing women's clothing, but making them neutral.

he said that way in the past when you could say transvestite or cross dresser

Nowadays he identifies as a transwoman because he wears nail varnish!!!!! - and I don't, does this make me a trans man Eddie???

I much preferred Mrs Gloss when it had a couple thousand members and you could ask for recommendations on moisturiser etc. It quickly got too much "here is my make up, don't I look amazing" with loads of gushing replies. I would post occasionally and never got fawned all over, I felt like I wasn't one of the 'in' crowd. I've seen distinctly average looking people being told they are stunning and people in bad clothes being told they should wear whatever they want. I was always honest (constructively) and often got quite a few likes once I was.

As a result, there was a thread on here a while ago discussing this side of MrsG and another, much smaller grouo was set up, for the intended purpose of recommendations etc. Not pouty, constant attention seeking pictures at all. I had hidden Mrs G but after knowing there are a douple of weirdos getting off on it, it has put me right off even wanting to bother with it again. I never understand it when peoole say what does it matter if some random is wanking over what you say. I've seen similar attitudes towards childrens photos and paedophiles. Posters on MN have said if you don't know they are perving over your child's picture then what does it matter! It's the same principles. It's disgusting, whether you explicitly know or not.

alright then, we're off down the rabbit hole now. i still maintain that if you make claims about crime statistics and law, you should be able to show your workings. i don't even know what you're on about now.

if all this is such a credible threat, why can't anyone come up with the statistics? it's not such an outlandish request, is it?

but i see the thread has moved on to Eddie Izzard, tutting about his autonomous decisions. he was a Get Out of Jail Free card - 'i'm not against it, per se. i think Eddie Izzard is wonderful. it's just unthreatening dress-up you know.'

ah, well. that's all gone now. do carry on.

Not sure what you're on about there exwife. If you are after some kind of statistics, you can google them.

i'm not the one claiming that women will be assaulted by men in frocks, because you will be able to just buy a new birth certificate with whatever you want on it.

i mean, i'm paraphrasing here but you get the general idea. you made claims, i asked for sources. instead, i got the usual dissembling, batshittery and straw men. 'twas ever thus.

You didn't have a clue what the proposal said. You still don't. Are you completely incapable of googling?

You won't need any proof you're a transperson to get a certificate, if there is one. That is the fucking point.

i tell you what, though - don't tell me what i do or don't know.

and ok, i'll have a dig around myself, if you think this is how this works.

but - the claims made about AGP and crime stats and erosion of requirement for gender reassignment are either A) a proper statistic that has credible sources because you literally just posted it so it's fresh your in mind or B) something you made up or read on a website that is equally made up.

you can't have it both ways.

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

And I'm done doing your homework for you.

if all this is such a credible threat Well, here's how it is already eroding exWife

In Scotland, policy guidelines state that the social gender in which the prisoner is living should be fully respected, regardless of whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate. See section 1.3 here. So guess what, MTT are in with females right now.

Roller derby is a high contact physical sport but see point 13 of the UK Roller Derby's [[http://ukrda.org.uk/2014/04/ukrda-transgender-policy/ transgender policy]], which says "Transgender skaters will be welcome to skate in UKRDA sanctioned games and compete at a national level without the requirement of disclosing their transgender identity." And that's just one sport, I'm sure there are plenty more.

And do watch that youtube video posted by Datun. It's long and it's scary.

Erm, those of you insisting that the whole business of trans rights is just about letting male perverts 'access women' do know that there are trans men, too? And that part of the reasoning behind allowing people to use the toilets that suit their gender identity is to address the fact that a transman, who presents as male, doesn't want to be made to use the ladies' toilet because of the risk of at least verbal abuse to him, and also the distress it might cause to the ciswomen (or transwomen) using the ladies to see a 'man' in there...
Yes, there are a lot of issues around gender and transpeople and the safety and rights and wellbeing of everyone. But the obsession with making it a sexual perversion which is a threat to all right-thinking people is not actually very helpful.

And if the men don't mind, let them. However, I think you'll find there really isn't a rush for FTT prisoners to transfer to a male prison, or indeed, all that many wishing to use male loos or changing rooms.

Identifying as a man does not protect FTT from male violence and rape.

OH SWEET JESUS NOT ROLLER DERBY

is nothing sacred?