AIBU to be grossed out ?Autogynaphila and Mrs Goss

[Pollypickypocket]

Not quite sure if my reaction is justified to be honest. Have just been in a conversation with a psychologist friend about feminism, trans issues and various theories of the advantages of gender rolls in evolutionary theory etc - wide ranging and pretty interesting as we are both gender critical but have differing views on biological aspects. He however raised the issue of late transitioning autogynaphils and how part of the fetish is being acknowledged as female/feminine/sexually attractive. I was sort of aware of autogynaphila but didnt honestly click what it ment or that it was a sexual fetish rather than an identity issue.
On Facebook I am member of Mrs Gloss a make up group and it's just occurred to me that its actually being used on occasion by autogynaphils to fuel their sexual fetishes if what he says is correct and it's really freaked me out to be honest.

I'm beyond frustrated about people arguing that it is unfair to make this about how all trans women are AGP when the thread is in fact ABOUT AGP! Not about transwomen who are not AGP. Not about people practicing a fetish in the privacy of their own life. Only about AGP who recruit unaware women to take part in their fantasy.

When air hostesses sell used tights and uniform online, they know what they are doing. Their choice.
When women comment on an AGP's thread, out of a desire to be kind supportive and welcoming, they should equally be aware that they are feeding someone's fetish.

datun that analysis has nothing to do with your claim that the criteria for 'diagnosing transgender' are being reduced at an alarming rate. my brain is old and rusty so could you please explain further?

It wasn't aimed at you, i was just pointing out that the people you commented on are not the only people arguing here who are not in the group. Sorry, I thought it was clearer that it wasn't aimed at you - I know you want to preserve safe spaces :)

I know it's not a big problem, I have said as much here. Im in the group too (though not a founding member!) so also disagree with the comments about pouting bimbos etc. When we had comment from mrs g, that could have been a natural point at which to draw a line. But posters continued to argue that there was nothing wrong with the idea at all, despite mrs g saying she does not want it in the group. Posters who have said they aren't in the group, hence my last post

To those who think it is pouting bimbos, I promise you I'm about as far from a pouting bimbo as you can get

(There is a very deflated balloon in my living room that my DS drew a face on, that I am feeling a strange urge to take a picture of... )

I'm in bed, but I'll do it in the morning
Seeing as I've been double dared!!

exWife

Historically AGP has been characterised as a philia and not considered eligible for SRS.

"Those seeking SRS are careful to deny their use of masturbation with fantasy. According to post-SRS AT Sandy Stone, “wringing the turkey’s neck,” the ritual of penile masturbation just before its surgical removal, “was the most secret of secret traditions” practiced by ATs.37 To admit the habit of masturbation would be to risk being disquali ed as a candidate for SRS."

couragerc.org/wp-content/uploads/SRS_217-1.pdf

"Most of the increase in MtF transsexualism can be accounted for by men who would have been considered atypical—and probably inappropriate—candidates for sex reassignment only a few decades earlier."

www.crossdreamers.com/2009/08/autogynephilia-defined.html?m=1

"In the 1960s and early 1970s, any history of sexual arousal to cross-dressing or cross-gender fantasy was regarded as a contraindication to SRS (e.g., Baker, 1969). The introduction of the concept of gender dysphoria syndrome by Laub and Fisk (1974) liberalized the indications for SRS and made SRS more easily available to persons with a history of autogynephilic arousal. However, some experts continued to believe that sexual arousal to cross- dressing or cross-gender fantasy was a contraindication to SRS (Lundström, Pauly, & Wålinder, 1984; Sørensen, 1981),"

www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia,_a_paraphilic_model_of_GID.pdf

The current criteria for a diagnosis of GID is the following:

"A definite mismatch between the assigned gender and experienced/expressed gender for at least 6 months duration as characterized by at least two or more of the following features –
Mismatch between experienced or expressed gender and gender manifested by primary and/or secondary sex characteristics at puberty
Persistent desire to rid oneself of the primary or secondary sexual characteristics of the biological sex at puberty.
Strong desire to possess the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
Desire to belong to the other gender
Desire to be treated as the other gender
Strong feeling or conviction that he or she is reacting or feeling in accordance with the identified gender.
The gender dysphoria leads to clinically significant distress and/or social, occupational and other functioning impairment. There may be an increased risk of suffering distress or disability.
The subtypes may be ones with or without defects or defects in sexual development."

WHO - constantly revise their criteria for all sorts of mental illnesses.

"The proposals to declassify transgender identity as a mental disorder have been approved by each committee that has considered it so far"

There is an increased realisation that transgenderism is as much a cultural phenomena as it is a neurological one.

To get a gender reassignment certificate (legally changing sex) you currently have to have gender identity disorder and live as your desired sex for two years. This is self reported as there is no in empirical evidence.

The private members bill currently being considered in parliament will remove all and any criteria. Self certification (i.e., downloading a form from the Internet) will be sufficient to legally change sex.

Do you like my new mascara?

datun thanks for the additional info. i still can't see where the stats are regarding how the criteria for diagnosing Gender Identity Disorder are reducing, and the rate at which this is happening/has happened.

the info above states that to get a gender reassignment you self-report, as if someone would literally be able to act immediately without any other criteria needed. in fact, you still must have a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, which means the steps currently taken are still the same. more than 6 months duration of criteria, followed by a two year waiting period before applying to reassign gender.

i mean, a two and a half year (minimum, depending on how available Charing Cross are and the time taken to make an assessment) is hardly men in frocks stampeding into council offices and declaring their legal rights and intentions to peer at women in toilets.

i presume that self-certification as regards to the private members bill is subject to the same minimum requirement of a formal diagnosis and a two year waiting period? please correct me if i'm wrong - a link to the bill would be good.

sorry, missed a couple of words. i mean a two and a half year waiting period to apply, and to get a gender reassignment certificate you self-report.

No it's not subject to that requirement. That's why it's such a problem. Maria Miller wants to remove the gatekeeping element. It's fairly easy to see the potential problems with that.

"Gender identity" would become the protected characteristic in place of "gender reassignment". That covers anyone who claims to be "gender incongruent".

Including any man who just likes to put on a dress occasionally but styles himself "non binary". He would be considered the same as a transsexual or someone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

exwife

Being transgender is now such a woolly umbrella term that according to Stonewall I am transgender.

And no, self identification would mean just that.

The entire bill (98 pages), is available online as a PDF.

But to precis:

In January the Women and Equalities Committee produced a report calling for a self-declaration system for legally changing ones gender. Currently if a person wishes to change their legal gender they must be over 18, be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and have been living in their desired gender role for at least two years.

The Committee’s report called for the removal of all three of these criteria, so that anyone could easily become legally a member of the opposite sex, without the need for any form of social or medical transition. Effectively, any man could claim transgender status to gain access to sex-specific spaces and services whether he genuinely thinks of himself as a woman or not and no matter how he dresses, and questioning his motives would be classed as a hate crime under the Equalities Act 2010.

fairplayforwomen.com/write-mp-house-commons-debate-transgender-equality

I'm not linking to any more stats/sites. All this information is available at the click of a button. And I have a dent in my finger from holding my phone doing all the cutting and pasting.

I will just add this. In Maria Millers entire 98 page report, AGP was not only not addressed, it wasn't even mentioned.

Despite it being prevalent, it has been airbrushed out.

Stonewalls trans definition, as it has been referred to by datun ...

"Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Transman, Transwoman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois"

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms

And yes, it includes me too, along with DH and both of my children. And my sisters. And my mum and dad. And probably my grandparents.
As none of us are walking stereotypes.

Well precisely. If my female gender stereotype means I like wearing dresses, I'm good at baking, nurturing, can do laundry, get paid less, am happy with being cat called, can't change a tyre and get talked over in meetings, then nope, I don't identify with it!

i dunno i mean if i was commenting about something i'd probably be able to lay my hands on a source. anywayi'm going to go and read the proposed amendment to the bill and see what the deal is for having the
proposal enacted.

because nobody seems to be mentioning that this amendment is still only a proposal by a government committee. and the sources you have given, datun are not exactly impartial, are they? or even actually sources that bear out your assertions?

One article that mentions it, but I can't find the actual phrasing right now. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/maria-miller-says-only-hostility-to-transgender-report-came-from-women-purporting-to-be-feminists-a6830406.html

I am looking, but in a uni lecture atm as well

"That this House notes the UK’s status as a pioneer in legislating for equality for LGBT people; welcomes the Government’s announcement of a new trans equality action plan; and calls on the Government to review its response to the recommendations of the Women and Equalities Committee’s report on Transgender Equality to ensure that the UK leads the world on trans equality rights, in particular by giving unequivocal commitments to changing the Gender Recognition Act 2004 in line with the principles of gender self- declaration and replacing confusing and inadequate language regarding trans people in the Equality Act 2010 by creating a new protected characteristic of gender identity."

"The Gender Recognition Act 2004 was pioneering but is now dated. Its medicalised approach pathologises trans identities and runs contrary to the dignity and personal autonomy of applicants. The Government must update the Act, in line with the principle of gender self-declaration."

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2016-0223/CDP-2016-0223.pdf

exwife

because nobody seems to be mentioning that this amendment is still only a proposal by a government committee.

or even actually sources that bear out your assertions?

I said
The Committee’s report called for the removal of all three of these criteria

I also told you that you can read the entire PDF online.

Maria Miller's proposed amendments have been the subject of threads on the feminist boards for months. As they have on every other feminist site on the Internet.

I'm not sure why this is suddenly news. The implications of the bill to women's bathrooms was a thread you actually commented on.

well butter my arse and call me charlie. you're absolutely right.

and i stand by it. what's your point, exactly?