Betrayed by TM.

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

We are being led down the path by TM who is now propsing to simply adopt every EU regulation, statute and Law wholesale.

We are beset by EU allergies directives, EU waste directives, EU working time directives, EU this EU that EeU fisheres directives...... We were told we can be a sovereign country if we leave the EU.

We were not told we will have to adopt every EU law wholesale.. We don't have to adopt them. We can and should create laws that meet our needs not paper pushers in Brussels.

[Peregrina]

Um, well those 3.3 million all need a GP for a start. they all get the NHS immunisations. Some of them will get free dental on the NHS.

Um well, does rather encapsulate your arguments.

A significant number won't bother to register with a GP until they need to.

I imagine that precious few will get NHS immunisations, since the majority of people are immunised as babies and small children, which people coming to work here aren't, by definition.

No one gets free dental care on the NHS. I do know, I have just been - and the cheapest band of treatment, which is basically a check up, x ray if necessary and scale and polish is £19.70. A filling costs £53.90 and work such as crowns and bridges costs £233.70. It's still good value compared with private treatment, but by no stretch of the imagination can that be described as 'free'. BTW such information could have been found with one minute's worth of googling.

[MGFM]

I actually don't think I have presented anything as fact.

I believe that immigration along with an ageing pop puts stress and pressure on all services.

[twofingerstoEverything]

Have you really convinced yourself that the 3.3 million extra people in the country are not causing any issues at all? No employment issues? No housing? No problems in schools? No issues at the GO surgery? On the roads?
Have you considered how much tax these people pay, which helps to support our economy? How much expertise they bring to the country? How many of them are doing jobs that require a mobile workforce (eg. agriculture)?
I think there is always a small proportion of any immigrant community that cause problems (another example of this would be British criminals on the Costa del Sol), but the vast majority of immigrants don't fit this profile.
Almost all the issues you list (schools, housing, NHS etc) are caused by under-investment and lack of forward planning. We have known for decades that we had an ageing population. Here's an article from 2008 but successive governments have failed to plan and we now have a crisis in social care.

[OhtoblazeswithElvira]

Natural growth includes children born here but to foreign mothers. That is 25% of all births.
How many of those have British fathers?

[Peregrina]

I should have said no one not on certain benefits, or pregnant or one year post natally, gets free dental treatment, so it's much more likely that UK born and bred people are the ones benefitting in those cases.

[Kaija]

"I believe that immigration along with an ageing pop puts stress and pressure on all services."

What two fingers said. Immigration is part of the solution to the issue of an ageing population, not part of the problem.

[DilysPrice]

And "foreign-born" =/= foreign

My children are part of the 25% because I was born overseas but I can trace my Anglo-Welsh ancestry as far as you can care to look.

[Theworldisfullofidiots]

Mgmf the Baby boomers are the largest demographic in our population. They are getting older. We have more old than young. Immigrants barely use the NHS compared to this group.
Each doctor costs approx £600k to train. When doctors come over they pay tax as well.
If the retirees come back from Spain this will add extra pressure and cost.
We are doing more than we ever did in terms of healthcare, we have arbitrary waiting lists based mainly on public pressure rather than clinical need.
Less people are having children and we are not growing (and haven't been for some time) to support our retirees (baby boomers plus). We need immigration of all sorts if we are not going to run down our economy.
We have pretty much full employment. If we don't have the workforce coming through we will perversely end up with high unemployment as companies are not able to fulfil demand and will also become uncompetitive.
If our govt didn't believe in austerity which is an economic ideology rather than sound theory. We might not be in this mess. Austerity has never worked.
If people had hadn't had so many babies after ww2 or conversely if people had had more in the 70s onwards we might not need as much immigration to be economically viable. As it is we do.

[MGFM]

Ok fact - the medical workforce home grown has grown an av of 3.4 percent per year in the last 15 years.

Doctors graduating per year approx 7500

[MGFM]

There is nothg wrong with a certain level of immigration. I never said shut it off completely. I just think it needs to be better controlled. I am walking away now as I have dinner to cook.

We will have to agree to disagree.

[twofingerstoEverything]

Doctors graduating per year approx 7500
So I think you'll agree that 1000 of those probably weren't all at the graduation ceremony your attended

[HashiAsLarry]

British trained Doctors emigrating to Australia alone has been higher than that figure in the last 2 years.

[Peregrina]

I don't tend to sit around reading about doctor training in the Uk.

So you might have been better not offering an opinion on the why we have a problem with having insufficient doctors in this country.

[Theworldisfullofidiots]

We still don't have enough doctors to fulfil junior doctor training. We were solving this by creating mutually beneficial programmes with some EU countries.

The reason we don't have enough are complex. Partly due to changing population, partly due to changes in demographic of workforce (more women wanting to work part-time - prime child baring age), partly due to working time directives stopping doctors working completely stupid hours (no one wants a very very tired doctor operating on them - just tired is better).
It's extremely complex and is getting worse as overseas doctors are starting to leave.

[MGFM]

I think I have been very polite offering my opinion as I generally like to treat other people as I would expect to be treated. This may be an Internet forum but being mean and just plain rude really is uncalled for. Would you be so rude to my face? Probably not.

I am allowed an opinion on why we have an under pressure NHS as is everyone else in the country.

[user1487175389]

Ha. Thank God for Teresa May if this is true. Stick that in your Ukip pipe and smoke it.

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

Immigration has become such a divisive subject that any questioning about numbers will just end up going round and round in circles

Of course the constantly underestimated immigration has raised issues from lowering of wages in certain sectors to the pressure on services. It takes time for the taxes we pay to get into the system. The issue has been made worse with cut backs and lack of investment

This isn't only here this is an issue in other countries in Europe and the EU have decided to ignore this and what is happening a frightening rise in the support of the far right Austria and The Netherlands their second most popular parties are far right parties we should not be ignoring this.

What is being proposed by those that are wanting close ties is that workers have to apply for a postition here so areas like the care sector and NHS won't suffer hopefully this will happen along with people being able to stay here

Also it allowed big business to pay the lowest of wages (and surely this goes against all the reasoning for staying in the EU as it is right out of right wing capitalist ideology) and the power is handed to them by having the ability to set wages low

[Lweji]

I actually don't think I have presented anything as fact.

I believe that immigration along with an ageing pop puts stress and pressure on all services.

Maybe researching facts instead of using "beliefs" would be better?

What do you base those beliefs on?

[Lweji]

Without the parents of said 25% there would not be enough people to look after the elderly Brits without forcing their daughters to give up work and look after them as in Japan.

Sadly true. And a problem in low birth, high emigration countries such as mine.
Countries with net immigration tend to do better.

[Peregrina]

This isn't only here this is an issue in other countries in Europe and the EU have decided to ignore this and what is happening a frightening rise in the support of the far right Austria and The Netherlands their second most popular parties are far right parties we should not be ignoring this.

This isn't entirely the case - the far right lost in Austria, and Geert Wilders hasn't done well in the Netherlands. Our right wing press has had their agenda to talk up the far right generally. Look at the prominence give to Farage. Then look at actual votes cast - a poor second in Sleaford, a poor result in Stoke; the same story being repeated in local elections.

Europe generally has a refugee problem - not helped by the warmongering of UK and US governments. But that is not immigration, and I believe it's the case that most refugees would prefer to stay in their own countries, if it were safe to do so.

[HashiAsLarry]

If someone has mentioned the 25% of births being to foreign mothers argument to my face I'd have definitely at them in real life like I had here. And asked the same questions British fathers and about foreign fathers to British mothers.

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

In both countries that have far right or populist parties gained the second most votes

That really is not to be ignored wenhabe the French and German elections that they are gaining power and popularity is something that conservative/central and left wing parties are now having to deal with look at the language being used to combat this

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

I'm well aware of the medias relationship with Farage and have gone on about it for sometime he has manipulated them and they like him as he brings in listerners/viewers both those that support him or those who love to hate him

[Megatherium]

And on the subject of the NHS. I haven't had a bad experience yet. But I also wouldn't have a problem paying to see a doctor. A nominal fee of £10 for an appointment. Unless on benefits in which case free.

An "I'm all right Jack" argument if ever I saw one. You personally wouldn't have a problem, so that's fine for everyone else. But what if you're just above benefits level and you or your child have a condition which means you need to see a doctor regularly and you just haven't got £40 or £80 or whatever to spare on top of prescription charges? There really would be people who wouldn't go to the doctor when they need it, thus become considerably more ill than they need to be and costing the NHS much more than it saves.

[twofingerstoEverything]

I also agree that NHS should remain free at the point of use. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with a tax increase if it assured the survival of the NHS.