Betrayed by TM.

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

We are being led down the path by TM who is now propsing to simply adopt every EU regulation, statute and Law wholesale.

We are beset by EU allergies directives, EU waste directives, EU working time directives, EU this EU that EeU fisheres directives...... We were told we can be a sovereign country if we leave the EU.

We were not told we will have to adopt every EU law wholesale.. We don't have to adopt them. We can and should create laws that meet our needs not paper pushers in Brussels.

I assume it is cars causing the pollution? Can't really stop people buying them! There are more environmentally friendly cars outthere but they are expensive.

And on the subject of the NHS. I haven't had a bad experience yet. But I also wouldn't have a problem paying to see a doctor. A nominal fee of £10 for an appointment. Unless on benefits in which case free.

But if you start making charges it is no longer the NHS service

But maybe that is the way forward

But if you start making charges it is no longer the NHS service

This and you will have the costs of collection and admin, so how much of your £10 will go to NHS treatment?

Beginning of the slippery slope.

MGFM But from where I am sitting companies and the government are making improvements towards being greener etc.

I don't want to be rude, but what on earth makes you think the government is making improvements? You really can't make sweeping statements like that without them being challenged.
not much 'improvement' going on here
and nine green policies killed off by the government
Why do you think Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace are so worried about Brexit?

I only know one Brexit voter in real life was able to cite real regulations she objected to

I voted to remain but I can give you chapter and verse on the real EU regulations I object to. But I thought and still think we are better off in than out, when everything is taken into consideration.

If you want an example of what I don't like: money laundering regulations. All about ticking boxes, and nothing to do with actual risk. And ISIS is still getting loads of dosh to carry on its barbaric practices so they are not working.

"I don't think you can blame the gov and councils for not being more green when the average jo isn't really either."

A very good point, which sort of backs up why regulations and laws are often necessary to bring about positive change, even when there is broad public support for that change. (Have you heard of the prisoner's dilemma?)
Say, for arguments sake, that it was perfectly legal to dispose of old furniture by fly tipping it in the local park. If your local park was full of old sofas etc, you and your neighbours would complain to each other about how it needed to be stopped. But many of you would still do it, because what is the point in you doing the right thing, if no-one else is? One extra broken microwave won't make any difference, so why should you bother driving all the tip if the park is already full of your neighbour's rubbish?

Scale that up from individuals within a community, to companies within a country, or countries within a trading block.

Co-operation, and shared regulations make sense. That's why, for example, international climate change agreements are so important.

Remoaniac, oh I know, there are plenty of EU regulations which are poorly written or less effective than they should be. There's also always the problem of unforeseen consequences from even the most well intentioned legislation. I know plenty of remainers who are strongly critical of many aspects of the EU, but I don't know many leavers who are able to actually point to specific regulations that they object to.
I never thought the EU was perfect (far from it), but I think Brexit is a mistake.

Ok - well, let's see. I did firstly caveat with saying this is just my opinion. I dot honestly follow environmental policy that closely. But up until recently you could get massive grants to stick solar panels all over your roof. I see hundreds of houses everyday with their roofs covered. I know the grants have decreased now so not as easy. I know the congestion charge makes money but I think it helped congestion in London.
Buying a greener car means lower tax - although I think cRs should all be taxed the same as they all drive on the same roads but people are encouraged to buy greener cars.

Recycling is taking off I think. In some councils you have to have a separate bin for food, recycling and the general waste. There was a time yoinjust had one bin for everything.

We are signed up to the Paris deal we just need to ratify I think ? I would argue that we are about average on the international scale of countries trying to be more environmentally friendly.

Offering grants to people to properly insulate their homes.

And now I believe they are going to be adding taxes and extra charges to diese cars? Not as environmentally friendly as first thought.

I will admit I don't know anything about the rules and regs of but companies and factories and what they have to comply with but I would guess there are rules they have to adhere to. They can't just dump waste wherever they want to.

What sort of policies would you like to see?

I voted to leave and I don't have a problem with the majority of the laws passed in the EU.

I had a problem with were the EU was headed. It is getting too big.

I think it worked very well before it was expanded to cover Eastern Europe. I think the disparity in GDP of those countries and the U.K., France etc etc was the reason we saw mass immigration which in my mind wasn't what the free movement was created for. As far as I am concerned it was so that the people with the right skills could go to where they were needed without the need of red tape visas etc. It wasn't supposed to be because working in a supermarket in the U.K pays 10 times more than a supermarket in Romania. This is a crude example. Immigration has been massive. And the result is a strained NHS, education system etc. People say we need immigrants to work in the NHS otherwise we wouldn't have enough doctors etc. Well we wouldn't need additional doctors if there weren't such high immigration in the first place. I am for all the immigration we can afford and house. And with the skills we need. For example engineers.

I didn't vote to leave because of wonky bananas.

Lots of typos. Sorry. Oh my phone.

A Spanish friend of mine works for YELP and she travels all over the EU for her job. This is what I thought the free movement of people was intended for.

It saves time to adopt them now and then review them later

If you think the UK's environment is safe in the hand of the Tories, outside the EU
listen to Jacob Rees Mogg in this video
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html
he wants to cut the UK's standards down to those of India's

"People say we need immigrants to work in the NHS otherwise we wouldn't have enough doctors etc. Well we wouldn't need additional doctors if there weren't such high immigration in the first place."

But if EU immigrants make up about 10% of NHS doctors, but only 5% of the population as a whole, then I am not sure your logic holds.

A lot of the pressure on housing and public services is concentrated in certain hot spots of the country, and is not just down to immigration but from UK citizens moving within the UK as well. Investment in other parts of the country to spread out the jobs and wealth and jobs a bit more would help. The UK government is reluctant to do this, despite all the lip service paid to "Northern Powerhouses". Some regions and towns used to benefit from EU development and regeneration grants, of course but that will be over now.

I agree that disparity between EU countries caused issues (like your Romania example), but that these problems would improve with time as the standards and wages in poorer countries improve.

Plus Romanian workers in their 20's do not put that much pressure on NHS services compared to elderly British born people. Many Eastern European workers took advantage of freedom of movement and higher wages in Britain to live and work here for a short while (like seasonal work) and return to their home country and families with increased spending power. So not really adding to the strain on housing and services.

The UK's population pressure is caused by ageing, not immigration
Look at this
populationpyramid.net/united-kingdom/2017/

3.3 million people is a lot.

There is nothing wrong with 10% of the NHS doctors being from the EU and I don't think that correlation makes any sense.

There are an additional 3.3 million people in the U.K. We are also not long out of a recession and so money was tight, it is still is for thrNhS but they still have to treat the extra 3.3 million people. Those people willl go on to have babies etc and so that number will rise. Just because 10% of the NHS are from the EU is neither here or there. We could have a general shortage of doctors and nurses and need them. No problem with that. But even with additional EU nurses and doctors we are still struggling with not enough staff.

If we say for example had 10% nurses and doctors from the EU but only 1 million EU citizens that wouldn't be an issue. My point here not very articulate is that having qualified EU docs and nurses isn't an issue.

And I believe an influx of cheap labour keeps wages depressed as employers know there will be someone willing to do the job for min wage, live in a shared house or room, save up and then send that money home. They don't need to increase the wages.

I really don't want to have to debate everyone on my own.

But i will say if 800,000 Brits moved to Poland they would soon have something to say about immigration.

MGFM
But there are not many young unemployed British people
and if wages rise, so do the prices of everything

Carrots will go from £1 a bag to £2 a bag (and they are grown here, let alone imported stuff)
Without the cheap East European labour a lot of food production will cease being economic in the UK (eg the tomatoes from Thanet Earth)
so there will be no jobs and just the cost of importing everything

THe population pyramids shows that the supply of young fit Romanians is drying up ....
Only Africa has a birth rate above replacement now

Much of what you say MGFM doesn't really make too much sense.

How many of the extra 3.3 million people need health care? Being young and fit, probably only a small proportion of them.

Why have we got a shortage of Doctors and nurses? Because it's been deliberate policy to import staff instead of training our own. Then again, large numbers of home grown staff are leaving because they are fed up of being overworked and being forced to compromise patient care, with the NHS being cut to the bone. Add in demographic issues with a significant number of health care professionals due to retire within the next ten years. This sorry state of affairs is a wholly political decision which could be dealt with if the will was there.

MGFM
In the 80's thousands and thousands of Brits moved to Germany - hence the telly programme Auf Wiedersehn Pet -

If the brits moved to Poland to look after Polish grannies and clean toilets I'm sure they would cope

What do the Spanish say about the over 300,000 British "expats"? Many of whom are neither young, nor fit.

You really don't see a correlation between immigration and pressures on the NHS?

Um, well those 3.3 million all need a GP for a start. they all get the NHS immunisations. Some of them will get free dental on the NHS. Some of them will probably need family planning, GUM clinic, need maternity services, break legs, arms, have infections, get depressed, get stressed, have children with special needs. I am a healthy adult and I still use the NHS. So let's please stop with they are all 'healthy' and don't use the NHS