Betrayed by TM.

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

We are being led down the path by TM who is now propsing to simply adopt every EU regulation, statute and Law wholesale.

We are beset by EU allergies directives, EU waste directives, EU working time directives, EU this EU that EeU fisheres directives...... We were told we can be a sovereign country if we leave the EU.

We were not told we will have to adopt every EU law wholesale.. We don't have to adopt them. We can and should create laws that meet our needs not paper pushers in Brussels.

[Cailleach1]

"pps someone said earlier you do know that equal pay legislation was started in the 60's, championed by Barbara Castle long before we entered the EU"

This was a great achievement. However, what was a great improvement was the concept of equal pay for work of equal value. When there was/is a feminisation of certain jobs, the pay may not have been so good. Maybe not as good as jobs traditionally done by males. The idea of the relative value of the jobs was a boon for women.

'The 1970 Act only dealt with equal pay for the same work but in 1975 the EU directive on Equal Pay was passed based on article 119. A 1982 judgement by the European Court of Justice led to the UK amending the Equal Pay Act in 1983 in order to incorporate the concept of equal value into UK law.'

//www.unionhistory.info/equalpay/roaddisplay.php?irn=785

[AllMyBestFriendsAreMetalheads]

A bit of light relief for the morning

[Peregrina]

The core problem is that from 2010 onwards TM as Home secretary demonised immigrants.

Thus legitimising an underlying suspicion of 'the other'. Now it's Poles and East Europeans generally; after the War it was West Indians and Indian/Pakistanis, before that Irish.

I believe too that in the handful of areas where there was a high influx, the relief available was abolished.

[Ta1kinPeace]

The core problem is that from 2010 onwards TM as Home secretary demonised immigrants.
The whole "down to tens of thousands" was her construct.
It played right into Farage's slimy hands
And was a significant factor in the June outcome.

The fact that the demonisation was always wrong is something TM has never been forced to address
and we are all stuck with the consequences.

[Lweji]

Ups, wrong thread, but ENJOY.

[Lweji]

Have you seen Colbert joking about Maddow's overhyped tax return piece?

He was not the only one. She does like to take her time, which I find annoying, and she definitely overdid it this time.

[DilysPrice]

On the downside - Boris Johnson.
On the upside, Joanna Lumley.

[HashiAsLarry]

But then immigrants go in the workforce education free. And their children will go on to contribute.
Absolutely. And if their children have made their lives here their children's children who are born here shouldn't really be classed as immigrants I'd strongly contest.

[Lweji]

On top of that UK's elderly won't easily be able to migrate to cheaper southern European countries.

[smallchanceofrain]

I believe that immigration along with an ageing pop puts stress and pressure on all services.

Who is going to care for our aging population if we tighten up on immigration? There are already recruitment problems in the NHS and in the private residential and home care sectors. Services for older people will just collapse without the migrant workforce.

[Lweji]

There were at least one set of dodgy stats floating about pre-referendum about the costs of educating migrant children.

But then immigrants go in the workforce education free. And their children will go on to contribute.

It's the emigrants that are not cost effective.

[HashiAsLarry]

And when the first child has kids of his own, will you be moaning about him being foreign born even though he had a British father and went to school in the UK?
There were at least one set of dodgy stats floating about pre-referendum about the costs of educating migrant children. In those were the children of people with one foreign parent/holders of dual nationality. My parents actually quoted this at me and I and said you know that includes your GC right?

[RufusTheRenegadeReindeer]

Cliff richards

[remoaniac]

I think Mega beat me to it - but some of those foreign-born mothers might have British parents.

And take an example - I have a British friend (English born, of Scottish parents) - who went to live in Germany. Met and married a German lady. First child was born in Germany. They then came to live in the UK. Had a second child. How would you classify that family? Immigrants?

And when the first child has kids of his own, will you be moaning about him being foreign born even though he had a British father and went to school in the UK?

The world has moved on. Borders and nationalities should have become a lot less important.

[Megatherium]

The issue around children born to foreign-born parents is irritatingly misleading, because it fails to take into account that, as a country, we have a colonial past and hence many entirely British people have been born abroad - me included. It also ignores phenomena such as long term army and other service placements abroad, to say nothing of people who work in other countries or just happen to give birth when on holiday.

[Megatherium]

My point here not very articulate is that having qualified EU docs and nurses isn't an issue.

It will very definitely become an issue when they leave the country due to Brexit and/or can't be replaced for the same reason.

[twofingerstoEverything]

I also agree that NHS should remain free at the point of use. However, I would have no problem whatsoever with a tax increase if it assured the survival of the NHS.

[Megatherium]

And on the subject of the NHS. I haven't had a bad experience yet. But I also wouldn't have a problem paying to see a doctor. A nominal fee of £10 for an appointment. Unless on benefits in which case free.

An "I'm all right Jack" argument if ever I saw one. You personally wouldn't have a problem, so that's fine for everyone else. But what if you're just above benefits level and you or your child have a condition which means you need to see a doctor regularly and you just haven't got £40 or £80 or whatever to spare on top of prescription charges? There really would be people who wouldn't go to the doctor when they need it, thus become considerably more ill than they need to be and costing the NHS much more than it saves.

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

I'm well aware of the medias relationship with Farage and have gone on about it for sometime he has manipulated them and they like him as he brings in listerners/viewers both those that support him or those who love to hate him

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

In both countries that have far right or populist parties gained the second most votes

That really is not to be ignored wenhabe the French and German elections that they are gaining power and popularity is something that conservative/central and left wing parties are now having to deal with look at the language being used to combat this

[HashiAsLarry]

If someone has mentioned the 25% of births being to foreign mothers argument to my face I'd have definitely at them in real life like I had here. And asked the same questions British fathers and about foreign fathers to British mothers.

[Peregrina]

This isn't only here this is an issue in other countries in Europe and the EU have decided to ignore this and what is happening a frightening rise in the support of the far right Austria and The Netherlands their second most popular parties are far right parties we should not be ignoring this.

This isn't entirely the case - the far right lost in Austria, and Geert Wilders hasn't done well in the Netherlands. Our right wing press has had their agenda to talk up the far right generally. Look at the prominence give to Farage. Then look at actual votes cast - a poor second in Sleaford, a poor result in Stoke; the same story being repeated in local elections.

Europe generally has a refugee problem - not helped by the warmongering of UK and US governments. But that is not immigration, and I believe it's the case that most refugees would prefer to stay in their own countries, if it were safe to do so.

[Lweji]

Without the parents of said 25% there would not be enough people to look after the elderly Brits without forcing their daughters to give up work and look after them as in Japan.

Sadly true. And a problem in low birth, high emigration countries such as mine.
Countries with net immigration tend to do better.

[Lweji]

I actually don't think I have presented anything as fact.

I believe that immigration along with an ageing pop puts stress and pressure on all services.

Maybe researching facts instead of using "beliefs" would be better?

What do you base those beliefs on?

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

Immigration has become such a divisive subject that any questioning about numbers will just end up going round and round in circles

Of course the constantly underestimated immigration has raised issues from lowering of wages in certain sectors to the pressure on services. It takes time for the taxes we pay to get into the system. The issue has been made worse with cut backs and lack of investment

This isn't only here this is an issue in other countries in Europe and the EU have decided to ignore this and what is happening a frightening rise in the support of the far right Austria and The Netherlands their second most popular parties are far right parties we should not be ignoring this.

What is being proposed by those that are wanting close ties is that workers have to apply for a postition here so areas like the care sector and NHS won't suffer hopefully this will happen along with people being able to stay here

Also it allowed big business to pay the lowest of wages (and surely this goes against all the reasoning for staying in the EU as it is right out of right wing capitalist ideology) and the power is handed to them by having the ability to set wages low