To shut her in the front room

[shesgrownhorns]

Dd has been an absolute little madam recently. She's been pushing the boundaries for a while now, which is normal I suppose and I'm a very easy going mum but I've had enough of the bed hopping, endless long goodnights, etc. She's 7 almost 8. I've put my foot down and decided that enough is enough. When I say enough is enough I simply mean that one story plus a few chapters of an audio book plus endless cuddles is enough and she's just got to stay in her own bed when it's lights out.

Dd was not happy with this change in routine and has been downstairs and planted herself defiantly on the sofa for about 8 times. Poor dh has taken her back up only to be immediately followed back down.

In the end I've just asked him to stick her in the front room, and tell her not to come out. Of course she came out. I put her back in and gave her a book of the book shelf and told her stay in there and read that if you're so wide awake.

I looked in on her and asked if she was ready to go up yet and she just looked up from the book she was pretending to read and stuck her tongue out at me.

I'm thinking the next port of call if this fails is the cellar, or maybe out on the front step.

Not really, but you might know where I'm coming from....

AIBU and if I am, what should I do?????

My uncle had ADHD in the 40's and suffered terribly when he was sent to boarding school, as he was always in trouble (despite very strict boundaries) He was also extremely difficult as a child.

7 is an age where children have strong feelings about being with their parents, and lots of imagination.They find it very difficult to just switch off wanting to be with "people" much as we would like them to quietly tune out and go to bed. I always had a strong sense that children needed a proper bedtime routine to reset any natural disinclination to sleep and wind down, but at the same time, over years of putting said children to bed I see that some children just cannot tune out so easily as others. My daughter drove us insane demanding interaction. In the end we tailored it to her, lay down, made up stories until she fell asleep for about 6 months. Soon she felt much more secure and stopped being so demanding and we were able to discontinue this routine. The great thing was letting go of expectations and working out what sort of child you have...over sensitive highly strung or needs very clear boundary low arousal sort of child (which was the sort of child my HFA was, he just needed the prompts to fall asleep peacefully) But daughter was just not like that, she needed something ELSE. And elder son, needed lots of chatting, and adult interaction downstairs once he was about 9, no way would he have wound down by being told firmly to go to bed.

I would say all my children have EXCELLENT sleep routines, both as babies and teens. The middle years, we began to see were more of a learning curve, we could no longer just assume they would be sweetly fast asleep at 8pm, which is what our earlier expectations (and the reality) was.

I think you have to let go of what you the parents want, and think about first what they need, and then once you have met that need, you will generally get what you WANT, which is a peaceful happy child.

My uncle was regularily beaten at his school as a teenager for misbehaviour. It really did not change his ADHD, I can assure you. Which turned into a mental breakdown aged 20.

I am not saying your child has ADHD, just that parents of children with ADHD will laugh at the suggestion that being firm will make children "just go to sleep". And the same would be true of many children, even if they have ADHD. telling someone to be sleepy is not sleep potion! However, you can set boundaries of a different sort, if you like. You can reinforce in a positive way, playing quietly in your room after official bedtime, or reading till you fall asleep or listening to a story tape, without an adult. But my gut feeling is that the primary need is that there is an adult there, which is why your child keeps coming downstairs. For some children this is hard wired..want to be with another person as I drift off to sleep, stone age perhaps to make them feel safe and protect from predators?

We don't have this issue because we stay with the DC until they sleep. We eat at 6pm (or as close to as possible) and no screens allowed after then. Bathroom at 7, so usually out and clean by 730. Bed for a story, then lights out at 8ish, music and a chat (especially if DS,7, has had a hard day at school) and then I sit in the bed with my iPad playing music and either reading on it or just on blank screen with my arm round him 'til he sleeps, usually by 815. DH and I alternate DC each night.
He wakes 6 at the latest, always has. Younger DD (4) has same routine and I wake her at 720 if she hasn't already got up.
They have no problem with going to bed by themselves when DH is away (bathroom, pjs, story together on sofa and then into bed with music on).

even if they do not have ADHD I mean..(typo)

Mine are a bit younger at almost five and three but about six months ago I stopped all screens after dinner (which is at around 5pm). Activities after that are colouring, or a jigsaw. Something calm.

Bedtime can still get tricky but it tends to be ok.

They don't even notice the lack of screens now and never ask for them.

ExPatchwork you are brilliant, that is what I meant by working with child. People scoff but if it works why diss it? It is not spoiling the child it is just making everyone's lives more pleasant and harmonious.

Another positive reinforcer would be a specific soft toy that shares bedtime or toy that she only plays with at bedtime in her room.

At the moment your daughter is getting plenty of reinforcement and attention (even if negative) for doing what you DON't WANT her to do, so now you have to think how you make it nice for her to do, what you DO want her to do.

Remember, at the moment, she has a completely negative view of staying in her room by herself, in her mind there is nothing to recommend it. How can you change that? Not by aversives (ie reprimands or punishments) but by reinforcing that her room is a nice place, and a lovely place to go to sleep in, eventually. Not a place of banishment.

knitting I read my post back and I when I said that the difference was that 'in my day' the teachers handed out physical disciplie, I hope it didn't come across as though I thought that was a good thing . Quite the opposite.

I also have made the decision, for the time being anyway, to just sit in the corner of my son's room or on the landing whilst he drifts off. Five hour screaming matches don't achieve anything except getting all of us upset. He is generally well behaved and knows that the adults are in charge, not him, but he just hates going to bed on his own. It is frustrating but I can live with it.

Hope you've all had a good night's sleep, OP.

While she is at school you must remove the tablet and hide it. When she asks for it, calmly say no, her behaviour last night was too bad. If she does better today, she can have it tomorrow. And repeat.

She'll hit the roof. And she'll test you. And if you're strong, and keep it hidden (even if you're really suffering) then she'll learn that you mean it.

And if she behaves better - not perfectly, but better - then she gets a tablet day tomorrow. But every tablet day depends on a well behaved bedtime the day before.

If she hides the tablet, remove the charger. She won't think of that in time.

I think that's a really good approach knitting.

Why is blatant disablism allowed to stand here when its about ADHD?

knitting it works for us, saves angst at bed time. DS has always had difficulty sleeping and he needs his sleep! My parents think we're crazy and the children need to learn their place. But I remember being punished for having nightmares and I swore I would never let my children be scared at night. I'm glad we do it this way as DH and I then have an evening knowing the DC are happily asleep. They won't want is in with them forever, but whilst they do, I see no reason not to.

DD is scared of the dark, DH thinks I'm crazy to go with her to turn the bathroom light on, but again I remember being forced to go upstairs in the dark alone and in tears because I was 'just being a baby'. I was scared of the dark for years. Now DD will occasionally go into the bathroom by herself and I'm sure its because she knows someone will come if she asks. We also have to remember to leave her blinds half open so there is some light from the street lights else if she wakes in the night she just screams in panic.

They both know if they wake in the night they can come and get me, but they have to do it quietly so as not to wake anyone else. I will stay with them till they sleep again (or until when I wake up again!) and DS knows to check if DD's door is open before he goes to our room.

"Too many lame parents, and too many fluffy snowflake parents these days. That's the problem. And that's why so many children have 'ADHD' - aka the personality disorder that manifests because of poor discipline, no boundaries, not letting your children know who's boss, not being arsed to pay much attention to your children, or letting your children get away with murder. (and quite often most - or all of the above Back in the 1970's/early 1980's, when I was a child; a disruptive, badly behaved child was a rarity; now they're commonplace, and they all have 'ADHD.' hmm"

Well, ain't no point arguing with stupid!

Back in the 70's and 80's children with disabilities were still being put into institutions. Out of sight out of mind. Maybe some folk are still trapped in past.

Back in the 1970's/early 1980's, when I was a child; a disruptive, badly behaved child was a rarity

I was an adult in the 1970s and early 1980s, and I can tell you that that is an absolute untruth.

Its just a total lie. AdHD is not even a personality disorder. Not worth even engaging with.

Wow- she's 7, not 2! Give her a bloody good bollocking and put her back to bed. Any more and there will be consequences - taking away toys, cancelling half term trips etc. As you know, you've created this situation by making bedtimes so complicated. You absolutely need to stand your ground now. She is ruling the roost!

I'm 49. When I was at primary school in the 70s there were most definitely children whose behaviour could probably now be diagnosed as ADHD.

For many children and adults living with ADHD, the fear of other people's ignorance, judgement, and unwillingness to try even a little empathy is what makes it 10 times harder:

"Too many lame parents, and too many fluffy snowflake parents these days. That's the problem. And that's why so many children have 'ADHD' - aka the personality disorder that manifests because of poor discipline, no boundaries, not letting your children know who's boss, not being arsed to pay much attention to your children, or letting your children get away with murder. (and quite often most - or all of the above Back in the 1970's/early 1980's, when I was a child; a disruptive, badly behaved child was a rarity; now they're commonplace, and they all have 'ADHD.' hmm"

Bravo, poster of that, for reassuring them on that score

Easier said than done but it sounds like she needs dicipline and boundaries. You and your DH need to sit down, work out a way in which you're both comfortable with and stick to a plan of action. It sounds like she's been able to get her own way for too long. Consistency and perisitance is the key. It won't be easy, but it needs sorting straight away. I'd recommend a star chart or some visual reward system. Never take away an award thata already been earned for good behaviour. But so follow through with any decisions you make about her bad behaviour. Don't do idle threats. Stay strong and consistent with a routine you're comfortable with and you'll crack it. Good luck x

Apologies for the spelling errors there. Typing too fast. I have a 6 year old and an 18month old. We used naughty step for my first DD and it worked brilliantly. We did do that from 2/3yr old. She never goes on it anymore, but we only ever had to say the words and she'd pack in. We also used to do a star chart. So rewards for cleaning her room, finishing her meals, using her manners etc worked brilliant for us too.

"We don't have this issue because we stay with the DC until they sleep."

You don't have this issue because you coddle. Are you still going to be doing this when they're 15 and smashing up their rooms?

"Wow- she's 7, not 2! Give her a bloody good bollocking and put her back to bed. Any more and there will be consequences"

This. If my kid wandered down, plonked their arse on the sofa and stuck their tongue out at me they'd be running back up the stairs pretty fucking sharpish once I started yelling. They wouldn't even DARE!

to those who stay with their children until they are asleep please be careful. I know a number of adults who have stayed in bad relationships purely because they couldn't face sleeping alone. by all means comfort them but do make sure they are okay in a bed by themselves by the time they leave home.

"Leave room to negotiate something small, so she feels she has control. With a child like this, it is getting nowhere to start inflicting more severe control as it just escalates the situation and helps nothing"

I found this from a PP really helpful. It's all very well saying 'I'd shout at them and they'd leg it upstairs', but shouting ultimatums at my DD just makes her more defiant, the whole thing escalates and doesn't really get her in the mood for sleeping. I think you have to understand what works for your own children. And for me, giving her little bits of control might work really well.

I think:

• no tablet for an hour or so before bed. It's disrupts sleep.
• make sure nothing is worrying her at school etc, that makes her not want to settle down by herself (sometimes this sort of thing could just be wanting attention because of a problem).
• Also, when my DD's bedtime goes a bit awry, the next night I try to shift the routine to make sure we have lots of time for quiet chatting as she's getting ready for bed (just me and her if possible), without stress. So she feels happier and reassured when she gets in bed.
• have rewards for staying in bed, going to be nicely etc
• have clear consistent punishments for rudeness like sticking tongue out. Don't shout about them, just quietly, firmly remind her.

Niksayuna really? They will be trashing their rooms at 15 because we read them stories, talked about the day and gave them hugs when they were 7??? I'm actually assuming that as they get older they will want us there less. Once they can read, maybe they won't want us to read stories to them. Maybe they will still. Who knows? And I can't see a 15 year old wanting me tonsil with him whilst he falls asleep. But I can tell you with absolute certainty if I started yelling at my DS now and telling him I didn't want to see him and to go to his room, then he would be trashing his room at aged 7 and most definitely not settling down to go to bed.

As I said, when DH is away for a week at a time they go happily to bed by themselves because they understand i can't be in both rooms at the same time.

I wonder what happens to the children who have never learnt to fall asleep in their room alone when they are 18 and go to Uni?

They will be in halls of residence with 7 (or more) other 18 year olds in neighbouring rooms, but no parents to cuddle or sit in their room with them until they fall to sleep

If it works for you when they are babies fine but please think about what will happen to them as 18 year olds if they never learn to fall asleep by themselves.

When are you going to start to let them grow up to learn to fall asleep alone in a room?