To ask how this is all going to end

[thedcbrokemybank]

I see Brexit and Trump as symptomatic of a rise in right wing views (FWIW I do believe there is a legitimate argument for Brexit just that it has been overshadowed by other issues). In some respects I can even see where they are coming from (protectionist stand point) but what I don't understand is how any good can come of what is happening now. I don't believe Trump has the capacity to MAGA because the world he wants back does not exist anymore. I think his actions have a huge global impact and he is totally destabilising peace within western civilisations.

Genuinely what do people believe is going to happen now and how is this all going to end?

Splitters!

Yeah, let's see if he builds roads, hospitals, education, provides sanitation, law and order and wine and public order.

The Mexican Wall does not apply to the above BTW.

You're just a bit behind, but you'll catch up eventually.

Sorry I am much to old to catch up lol.

Thats a poor excuse for bigotry.

Yeah, let's see if he builds roads, hospitals, education, provides sanitation, law and order and wine and public order.

There is a good idea. I am not sure how people survive if they believe the sky is falling everyday, I know I could not. The media here fails us miserably, on both sides. Everything is a big deal. The reports are this action "may cause" or "might turn into" or "could lead to". Just tell me the dang facts and quit making EVERYTHING you report such a big epic deal because most of the time it is not.

Babba I agree, if ethnic minorities act wrongly they deserve to be made publically accountable - as do white or black minorities or majorities. The issue is not to tarnish a whole group because of the bad behaviour or a few members.
However, if Trump was to apply this tactic, he might start with banning the ownership of high powered weapons because of the multiple murders of US citizens on US soil by US citizens. That would reduce the real terror threat these weapons present in the hands of the wrong people.

Thats a poor excuse for bigotry.

OK, I went back and reread my posts (apologies for the poor grammar). I believe you are saying my age is no excuse for bigotry. Can you please tell me what I said that made me a bigot? I am sincere and not trolling. I don't have a clue and as you said I need to catch up.

Thinking 25 yrs down the line, there is this to look at. The USA will be majority non-white people by 2044ish. Will the heavily WASP rust belt & bible belt take that change peacefully?

What would happen if a pile of Business people ran a country - they might make a bit of money but I can't see that money being fairly redistributed through society - I can't see the small people getting a sniff of it - but maybe they'll be happier for a while if they have white neighbours - how long would that last though - they'd have to start blaming someone else for having nothing because Trump sure as hell won't be giving them a cushion.

they might make a bit of money but I can't see that money being fairly redistributed through society - I can't see the small people getting a sniff of it

The great majority of the President's supporters are the middle class here in America and are tired of seeing what they do have taken away to be distributed by the government, fairly or not. These supporters are not getting a "sniff" of it no matter who is in charge but at least if businesses thrive they will have more opportunity to work for it. The takers that are already getting a sniff off of the government dole are all for the redistribution plan. Businesses are made to make money, if they can't do it in the USA then they will go elsewhere as has been proven. When they go elsewhere the middle class has to pick up the slack.

The middle class are defined by what in America?

The middle class are defined by what in America?

The simple answer is those making enough money above the poverty level to live comfortably but not in the top income tiers. Most graphs show those earning between 30% - 80% of all incomes. The problem in America is the big differences in the cost of living based on location. For example my salary in middle America gives me a comfortable life, but if I was in NY City or LA I could not afford to keep a roof over my head. So you have to factor in cost of living along with how many earners in the household, children, etc.

This is not to say there are not many working class/middle class Americans that support the opposite view because there are. I don't mean to paint a broad brush that all middle class are on the right side as that is not true. This is the biggest swath of voters and they can swing to either side as witnessed in the last two elections.

Businesses, especially the top earning ones will support both sides because they want to benefit no matter who is in power.

But do we not have a duty to support those in society who are most vulnerable? Yes there needs to be balance but how do you create that?

Here's Trump speaking today, trying to frame America as the little guy, taken advantage of by the whole world....

When you hear about the tough phone calls I’m having, don’t worry about it. Just don’t worry about it. They’re tough. We have to be tough. It’s time we’re going to be a little tough, folks. We’re taken advantage of by every nation in the world virtually. It’s not going to happen anymore. It’s not going to happen anymore

How fucking stupid do you have to be to believe a word out of his stupid face? He talks like a toddler who needs a nap.

Narky I agree, because Trump's world is so tough and the world of his followers - living in the US where g (unless they live somewhere completely out in the sticks) they have clean water, electricity, sanitation. So tough, my heart bleeds.

And the jobs problem has got nothing to do with immigrants, blame robots not immigrants, jobs are becoming automated, they should be introducing universal credit in the US if they want to solve the jobs problem and making science/technology a focus point of the education system, but some schools still teach creationism, so what hope is there?

I've read this whole thread, and I find the argument that 'being anything other than left means our voices have been shut down' unconvincing. Yes, there is a problem with people being left behind, but like I said in my PP blame the technology era and the fact that governments haven't stepped up and addressed it.

We can't normalise what Trump is doing, turn a blind-eye to his obvious inhumane treatment of immigrants because 'it's okay - he'll be creating jobs'. He's supposed to be representing the Christian majority of the US, how does breaking up families based on their nationality agree with their Christian ethos and incidentally if it's Muslims they are scared of, they aren't all Muslim in these countries, these countries have Muslim leaders so if you are athiest the government marks you down as Muslim, and who is going to stand up and say they are athiest anyway when they could be imprisoned??
There are also thousands of Christians, Jews and other minority religions. Who were ALL banned.

And Winterfairy This is nothing like the Obama Iraqi (not Iranian as you stated) visa policy, I've linked the article below but the key point is:

"Obama’s Iraqi visa policy in 2011 did not ban Iraqis from entering the country. Obama’s immigration policy did not treat people with passports from the seven countries as unusually dangerous terrorism threats. And Obama’s policies never approached anything like the breadth, cynicism, and incompetence of Trump’s executive order."

www.vox.com/world/2017/1/31/14444862/obama-refugee-ban-2011

Trump's ban means that US citizens with dual nationality can't go home after visiting dying relatives in their homelands, it means that people who had sold their homes to come and live in the US to study/work and were granted greencards were turned away without any notice.

Please don't normalise this and present incorrect facts, all it does is allow people who don't give a shit to because it doesn't affect them to care even less and allows them to justify the fact that they don't care

This whole situation reminds me of this:

But do we not have a duty to support those in society who are most vulnerable? Yes there needs to be balance but how do you create that?

That is the million dollar question and I for one do not have a clue. At one time in America families and the church provided the safety net. In today's American "progressive" society here both of those have been cast aside. Socialism and communism have been proven not to work and the American system has for the most part only enabled those who would take advantage. I have yet to hear a good solution and sadly have none to offer.

Trump's ban means that US citizens with dual nationality can't go home after visiting dying relatives in their homelands, it means that people who had sold their homes to come and live in the US to study/work and were granted greencards were turned away without any notice.

This proves my point of sensationalistic journalism that has become the norm these days. The facts are that a relatively small number of green card holders were detained at one airport for a few hours. They were ultimately allowed to enter America as they should have been and there have not been any further incidences now that the the government employees understand the executive order.
Please show me reports of things being otherwise if you believe what I write is incorrect because from everything I can find this is the case,

How fucking stupid do you have to be to believe a word out of his stupid face?

Narky, this is for you. Your attitude and stance is what turns off most people that hold any other view than your own.
Your posts spew hate, you have called me and my opinions behind, stupid, bigotry, and to use your big word of the day “inane”. Instead of defending your position with logic and reason you have only thrown accusations at me without backing anything up. You won’t even answer a simple question of what you think is right or wrong, which leads me to believe that in your eyes there is no such thing as right or wrong. Call me all the names in the book you want, I do not care, but if you ask me why I think a certain way I guarantee I will give you an answer. You may not agree with it, and I don’t expect everyone to do so, but I believe that at the least you will know where TNOLDAD stands. I still don’t have a clue what Narky thinks other than that I am stupid. Your attitude will NEVER make this world we live in better.

For everyone else, I appreciate your posts, I am always open to hear what others have to say when it comes to their beliefs about the human condition.

tnolddad

www.huffingtonpost.com/jamsheed-k-choksy/entry-ban-dont-punish-irans-citizens-and-iranian-americans-punish-irans-government_b_14515844.html

"Iran is one of seven countries whose citizens have been prohibited from arriving in the U.S. for the next three months by an executive order aimed at “Protection of the Nation from Foreign Terrorist Entry.” Refugees seeking asylum from discrimination and persecution by the Islamic Republic’s authorities, including Christians, Jews, Bahais, and Zoroastrians, are on hold for 120 days as well. Even Iranians holding U.S. permanent residency can be subject to extra vetting and admitted or rejected on a case-by-case basis by the Department of Homeland Security when they seek re-entry to their American homeland."

It says 'US permanent residency', is this not the same as US citizen? If it is not then I stand corrected. But even if it technically isn't the same thing, it means they COULD be permanent residents and be banned, does it not? They could have lived in the US there whole adult life and actually be foreigners in their homelands now? Also, what does a case by case basis mean? What is the criteria where one person is allowed entry and another not? How can anyone argue with any decision that is made when no-one knows what the criteria is?

And moreover, what kind of message does this send out to all the people who live in the US who were born in those 7 countries? That they are nothing?

What kind of message does it send out to their neighbours who are Trump supporters? One of fear and hatred. That these people are probably bad. That the guy who looks middle eastern is probably a terrorist.

The article I linked in my PP explains things in Iran well:

"Whereas approximately 1,500 Iranians entered the U.S. annually between 1950 and 1977, mainly as students, 65 percent have arrived since the Islamic Revolution of 1978-79. They come for freedom from social, political, and religious oppression rather than financial gain and especially not to undermine American values, stability, and security. Moreover, loathing the fanaticism and militancy of Iran’s post-revolution leaders, Iranian visitors and Iranian-American permanent residents and citizens harken back to their cultured heritage by calling themselves “Persians.”"

This ban isn't hurting the extremists, ISIS are watching all this from a distance. This ban is affecting the ordinary people who have already fled persecution and are now facing it again in a country they have come to call their home.

There is no justification for such a divisive policy, it is simply wrong and is not even reaching the 'bad' people it aims to target.

Silence is complicity.

It says 'US permanent residency', is this not the same as US citizen?

No, that is not the same thing at all. My wife is a permanent US resident but as of yet is not a US citizen. Until the time she becomes a citizen she will not have the same rights as a US citizen, the biggest being she has no voting rights.

I would agree that the rule as written leaves some areas for abuse which can always lead to problems. I pray those ambiguities will be dealt with in short order.. According to our own DHS "As Secretary Kelly previously stated, in applying the provisions of the president's executive order, the entry of lawful permanent residents is in the national interest. Accordingly, absent significant derogatory information indicating a serious threat to public safety and welfare, lawful permanent resident status will be a dispositive factor in our case-by-case determinations." www.dhs.gov/news/2017/01/29/dhs-statement-compliance-court-orders-and-presidents-executive-order

I would hope that common sense would prevail (yeah I understand that may be a pipe dream).
In other words, if my wife went home to jolly good England, and the US intelligence had evidence she had met with known terrorist while she was there, I would hope they would at the very least hold her and ask her what the heck was going on.
The article you linked was what "could happen" instead of what actually has. I admitted there was an isolated case of government employees not understanding the order. I still have yet to see actual cases of abuse but your point is well taken

This ban isn't hurting the extremists, ISIS are watching all this from a distance. This ban is affecting the ordinary people who have already fled persecution and are now facing it again in a country they have come to call their home.

Good point. I need to speak with an Iranian immigrants I know to get his opinion. I am sure they could help me see there point of view since he fled during the Shah of Iran's rule back in the 80's. Have you been able to communicate directly with legal immigrants living here in the US or in your country?

I believe it is a fact that terrorist have used the refugee program program to cause harm on many democratic states, not just the US.
"The Islamic State has planned to infect refugee flows to the West with mass killers, and it has had some violent successes.
The CIA said last year that the terrorist group’s official strategy is to hide its operatives among refugees entering Europe and the United States via human flows out of the Middle East and North Africa.
The Islamic State, also known as ISIL and ISIS, has inspired followers to commit atrocities in San Bernardino, California; Orlando, Florida; and the Fort Lauderdale airport in Florida. Scores of U.S. residents have been charged with or suspected of providing material support to the Islamic State. Some have left the U.S. to commit war crimes in Syria and Iraq.
As President Trump places a 120-day ban on immigration from what he considers high-risk Muslim-majority countries, the history of the mass migration shows that some took part in the Nov. 13, 2015, massacre in Paris — two posed as refugees from Syria — and the Christmastime truck carnage in Berlin.
Two of the airport and Metro attacks in Brussels last year had fought in Syria and gained entry back into Belgium.
The German press has reported refugee knife and ax attacks on innocents."

Should all of this just be ignored? Is this just mindless fear mongering that we should not think about? Mind you all of this happened during President Obama's term

War, quite possibly WW3. Don't laugh, it's in the history books for anyone to read. It's what austerity and similar economic policies leads to as it has at least three times in the last 150 years. Start with Mark Blyth's Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea and follow the leads he provides in that book. Mark Blyth is a political economist at an Ivy League university.

Donald Trump, the orange man-child? I read somewhere that he's a bullshitter, not a liar. A liar needs to be believed, a bullshitter needs to be noticed. That Trump changes his mind on things so important in less than 24 hours, so often that he's not believable, seems to fit the description of bullshitter. He obviously doesn't care about being believed, he has the ultimate power, now, to be noticed. He has no self-control, but someone behind him does and that's where the power is now. I could laugh at him and dismiss him if it weren't so terrifying.

That Trump changes his mind on things so important in less than 24 hours, so often that he's not believable, seems to fit the description of bullshitter.

Please share link proving this that does not include innuendo. I know I am coming across as a Trump fan, but actually I am not. He was a very poor choice to lead the right and it is shameful that someone of his ilk leads our great nation. He won the middle because he is not a politician, as proven by his non politically correct tweets. I would again lay a lot of the blame of this mess on the media, and also social media as a whole. The internet has done more damage to us than it has good