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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To ask how this is all going to end

212 replies

thedcbrokemybank · 31/01/2017 11:04

I see Brexit and Trump as symptomatic of a rise in right wing views (FWIW I do believe there is a legitimate argument for Brexit just that it has been overshadowed by other issues). In some respects I can even see where they are coming from (protectionist stand point) but what I don't understand is how any good can come of what is happening now. I don't believe Trump has the capacity to MAGA because the world he wants back does not exist anymore. I think his actions have a huge global impact and he is totally destabilising peace within western civilisations.

Genuinely what do people believe is going to happen now and how is this all going to end?

OP posts:

NarkyMcDinkyChops · 02/02/2017 10:43

People keep comparing Trumps' rise to president with Hitler's rise to power. BUT when Hitler was on the ascendant his government was executing non-followers in public. I repeat- people were being rounded up and executed out in the street- hung and left dangling to set and example for other non-followers of the Nazi regime. I think there is a big difference between Trump and Hitler

Not at the START! That was years in, they didn't vote in Hitler one day and then start hanging people in the street. It's slow and insidious and helped along by people like you who deny there could be a problem.

Babba · 02/02/2017 12:14

Can you imagine if all Catholics or Catholic majority countries were banned from entry to the USA because the IRA were terrorists?

Yes, Tapandgo, I can. It is akin to some muslim majority countries banning anyone with an Israeli passport or even an Israeli immigration stamp in their passport because of the political situation in that region. And please don't tell me that this is "whataboutery" because that is the crux of the problem. It is the reason why we are where we are with someone as despicable as Trump and with the rise of Farage, brexit and the rest of them, which for me as a black person is a fearful thing for myself, my children and my relatives in America. We have to be deligent in calling things out if they are wrong. Berate Trump all you like, but if we ethnic minorities do something wrong then call us out on that too - do not sweep it under the carpet. Fairness and balance should be brought into the discussions otherwise we will be teethering from one extreme end to another for the forseeable future. Listen to Majid Nawaz on LBC, he makes the point succinctly.

NarkyMcDinkyChops · 02/02/2017 12:18

As said repeatedly, its not the same thing at all. For one thing, the places that band Israeli passport holders are the places that Israel offcially list as enemy states, and ban their own citizens from going there. Banning people from your country who aren't allowed to go there by their own country anyway, and who deem you to be their enemy is not the same thing as banning people simply because you don't like their religion.

grumpypuss · 02/02/2017 12:21

"if we ethnic minorities do something wrong then call us out on that too - do not sweep it under the carpet." Call you out on it? All of you, e.g the whole ethnic minority population? Or just the responsible individuals?

Note babba that the countries on the banned list have not produced a single terrorists who has killed US citizens. Saudi on the other hand have (9/11) and isn't on the list. Isn't that odd? Also I'd like to hold the US, the land of the free, to a higher standard than some of the MENA countries which have banned Israelis. Don't you agree?

Babba · 02/02/2017 12:36

Well, yes, grumpypuss, all of us. Then at least we will look inwardly and begin to make a change.

mummymeister · 02/02/2017 12:49

It's slow and insidious and helped along by people like you who deny there could be a problem

I try to ignore posts like this but honestly this one takes the biscuit.

There will not be WW3
There will be no rise of the Hitler/Trump

If you want to talk about people being held without trial for years, tortured, not allowed to see their families and kept in solitary confinement look no further than Guantanamo Bay. successive left wing presidents despite promising to close it down haven't. I didn't see anyone comparing Obama to Hitler when he kept what is in actual fact the nearest thing there is to a concentration camp open.
And don't come back at me and say he didn't open it because that's irrelevant. he didn't close it down. he perpetuated it.

but of course we gloss over this don't we. we talk about people being banned from entering a country when I would far rather be banned from the USA than have spent most of my life in the shit hole that is Guantanamo Bay without a trial.

Trump has become a convenient bogey man. something to frighten old ladies and children with. the world is not going to end, its just going to be different.

Riversleep · 02/02/2017 13:08

In some ways, I hope he isn't impeached. it will be seen as the establishment yet again trying to ignore the will of the people. I hope he is allowed to fail horribly and is roundly defeated at the next election. I also hope that his far right henchman Steve Bannon and the rest of his racist, homophobic and misogynistic cronies don't do too much damage in the meantime. If those groups carry on protesting and causing havoc and refusing to give up their hard fought rights, hopefully they will be OK. It seems California and New York are determined to protect them.

grumpypuss · 02/02/2017 13:12

"Well, yes, grumpypuss, all of us. Then at least we will look inwardly and begin to make a change." ?? Could you clarify?

mummymeister · 02/02/2017 13:16

but the people protesting aren't all the people. I just don't think these kind of mass actions make any difference at all. I really don't.

it needs the people who are incensed to get engaged in politics to do the leg work to make sure that a different candidate is elected in their area.

I don't think any of this "left good, right bad" rhetoric helps the situation at all.

there has for a long time been a feeling amongst people with any sort of view that wasn't left wing that they should just shut up or be shouted down. they have been repressed, not discussed with or educated about or compromised with. they have been shouted down.

this is never a good thing to do. just shouting trump is wrong and trump out doesn't address the concerns or issues of the people who voted him in. and of course you can just dismiss this whole group as uneducated/racist/sexist/homophobes or you can engage with them and understand their issues.

its always easy to shout someone down. far harder to make the effort to understand and seek a compromise.

NarkyMcDinkyChops · 02/02/2017 13:18

You can't compromise with stupid. And you shouldn't compromise with fascists.

mummymeister · 02/02/2017 13:55

so you don't agree with the compromise with the IRA to bring about peace then Narky? or is that alright because they are a left wing group?

You can't compromise with stupid. And you shouldn't compromise with fascists

This is what causes wars. People who believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

lljkk · 02/02/2017 14:03

"Guantanamo Bay. successive left wing presidents despite promising to close it down haven't"

successive, Presidents, in the plural? Obama is only one who promised to close it down, and the only left wing (ish) prez we've had since G-Bay was opened. Did I miss a few presidents??

scaryteacher · 02/02/2017 14:05

I don't think that the choice is that binary Narky : Unless you engage and compromise, things won't change. You can compromise with stupid, you can compromise with anyone if you have to, to achieve the desired outcome.

mummymeister · 02/02/2017 14:06

sorry lljkk other candidates promised but of course only Obama had the power to do it and he didn't.

I guess I am just tired out of reading left good right bad threads.

tnolddad · 02/02/2017 15:51

because millions of Americans are racist, lawless, antisocial and backward, and had been seriously affronted by 8 years of a well educated black president with a social conscience.

You forgot misogynist, biggots, deplorable, bible thumpers, stupid, uneducated, idiots, homophobic.... I am sure I am missing some.

The funny part is you would say they are also the ones full of hate

NarkyMcDinkyChops · 02/02/2017 16:13

This is what causes wars. People who believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong

Telling people what you think they believe and then telling them why they are wrong causes wars too.
I didn't say everyone else was wrong. Just the wrong ones. Believe it or not, there are such things as right and wrong, and some people are very wrong. I don't feel the need to pretend they aren't wrong in order to compromise with them.

tnolddad · 02/02/2017 16:33

Believe it or not, there are such things as right and wrong, and some people are very wrong.

Do you think when a leader of a country protects his country by denying access (albeit temporary) to a known threat is right or wrong?

Do you think when a leader of a country will not use funds from his own country to let people in other countries kill there own babies is right or wrong?

NarkyMcDinkyChops · 02/02/2017 16:43

I don't agree with the premise of your inane questions so will not answer them.

tnolddad · 02/02/2017 16:59

No silly questions. You stated there is right and wrong. I think he was right on both accounts and I am sure there are plenty of people here who think otherwise, I know there are here in America. The thing is that an equal amount that would agree with me.
This is the great divide among people in the US and in Britian. two equal sides thinking right and wrong are two COMPLETELY different things. I hate to break it to you but the left side has taken what society as a whole has accepted as right and wrong and turned it upside down. They actually believe that a man can "choose" to be a woman. Let me give you another "inane" question. Do you think that is right?

LordRothermereBlackshirtCunt · 02/02/2017 17:16

the left side has taken what society as a whole has accepted as right and wrong and turned it upside down. They actually believe that a man can "choose" to be a woman. Let me give you another "inane" question. Do you think that is right?

This is the most ridiculous straw man argument I've ever heard. No, "the Left" does not think this. Yes, there is an MP trying to change the law so that people will be able to identity as a particular gender, but she is a Tory. Many of the people who support men being able to identify as women are right-wing misogynists who want to remove women's rights and spaces.

So, yes, inane. Not to mention suffering from the usual American inability to understand what "left-wing" actually means.

tnolddad · 02/02/2017 17:36

Not to mention suffering from the usual American inability to understand what "left-wing" actually means

You may be correct in that, or maybe left-wing in Britain may be different than left wing in America. Our former President Obama touted the gender choice agenda to the point of directing all public schools that transgender students must be permitted to use bathrooms that align with their gender identity. Most of Americans looked at Mr. Obama as left-wing, himself included. From your statements Brits must look at him as something else. He sure as heck isn't on the right or center so it must make him left of left wing

tartansnowman · 02/02/2017 17:40

Obama is not left wing though. He doesn't support socialism or any analysis derived from it.

NarkyMcDinkyChops · 02/02/2017 18:00

I hate to break it to you but the left side has taken what society as a whole has accepted as right and wrong and turned it upside down

Society as a whole has never accepted one right or wrong. At one point "society" said it was "wrong" to be gay. We have taken that and turned it upside down, and that is something to be proud of, like many things.

It wasn't the left though, it was just people in general. You're just a bit behind, but you'll catch up eventually.

DameVanillaSugar · 02/02/2017 18:07

God, this is like the Popular Judean People's Front v The Popular People's Front of Judea.

Can we all unite and ask: "What has Donald Trump ever done for us??"

tnolddad · 02/02/2017 18:08

Obama is not left wing though. He doesn't support socialism or any analysis derived from it.

Thanks for that. Left wing must have a somewhat different definition in Britain than here. I think we probably have much wider terms as there is pretty much only one or the other (left or right). The only question is how far on either side a person is if that make sense. I do envy that the Brits have a lot of parties to choose from while here only two dominate.

Also here, we would look at one payer medical care as a socialist program, which is what the left wing, (aka democrats which includes President Obama) support. If you have a few hours to waste go to the democratic national convention website and read the party platform. For anyone in America it looks very socialist even though it is not called that.

Just more food for thought from the straw man

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