To be so angry with nursery

[Rockingaround]

Hi all,
Not sure what to do, I only know that I'm so angry but not sure if I'm overreacting.

DS just turned 4 last weekend. I picked DS from his nursery (within primary school) yesterday. He started in September after being at pre school, his session is 8.45-11.45. His former and current teachers have said he's a really good boy, good at listening and following the rules etc

Anyway, at pick-up he was balling his eyes out, snotty, gasping - in a right state, in all honesty I have never seen him this upset.

One of the nursery staff said " We were making biscuits and none of the children ate a smartie except for DS so Miss X has decided he is not allowed a biscuit because of it".

After DS had calmed down he told me he'd eaten a smartie. They told him he wasn't allowed to eat it but he carried on making his biscuit. Only at the end of the session when they were filling out the biscuits did they say he wasn't allowed to take his home because he'd eaten a smartie. I asked if they'd warned him that would happen if he ate a smartie and he said no.

I couldn't speak to them at that moment as I was so angry, I'm thinking g of writing a letter....? What would you do?

I'm doing his birthday party today but I'll check back in later. Thank you

Kids and adults need boundaries and ds did something he was told not to do

Eat the smartie

Until op goes into the setting and asks to speak to to teacher in charge and find out what excalty happened

Tho if my dc was that upset at pick up I would be asking to see the teacher there and then to go over the situation

Or

Expect the teacher to talk to me at collection

On the whole, I have noticed that some teachers on MN go out their way to defend a teacher they've never met.

Have you been on the Primary Ed boards?

Hi all, OP here, thank you so much for all of your replies; I really appreciate it (we've had a really long day so o have scanned through the ten pages and it seems like there's a 50/50 split) - the nursery teacher, Miss X
is quite strict, a little boy last week was denied his cake for hitting another child. From what I've gathered from my DS is that they were told not to eat the smarties.

However many of you echo my gripe, which is that he should've been removed from the activity. He shouldn't have been allowed to carry on making the biscuit.

I agree that he should have either been told off or sent on time out for eating the smartie he was told not to eat. I agree that in letting him carry on, they devalued any lesson they were trying to teach him as it was far too after the fact/crime for him to understand the connection - confiscating the biscuit an hour later resulted in a disproportionate punishment.

Apparently the smarties were kneaded into the dough mixture so he must have ate the smartie at the beginning and then carried on rolling the dough out and forming in into a biscuit.

Ok I won't write a letter, (I realise this is ostrich behavior ) I just wanted to make my point without having to deal with Miss X, I just can't bear her patronising tone.

I get very flustered when I have to confront anyone and find it difficult to keep track of the points I want to make.

Basically I think it was just too harsh ... I want to tell her this but realistically I think Miss X will just be very condescending and defensive which will stump me as I'll feel nervous and intimidated about maintaining my stance while she defends hers.

Maybe I should just leave it alone, Miss X is not very approachable and I'm sure in his school life there'll be much worse than this.

DS had a lovely birthday party today and I don't think he even remembers the smartie fiasco now 😂 I'm also 25 weeks pg with our third, (I have DD6) so I'm probably a lot more sensitive than usual - Christ what if I just start bloody crying in the nursery!!

Harsh punishments are borne out of frustration and anger. If we took time to think of a suitable consequence, which should be logical, then we wouldn't dish out harsh punishments. It's like shouting. We only shout when we lose control. If we take time to think about what we want the children to learn from a mistake we don't need to shout.

^ This - from headinhands

I do try my best to follow through on punishments but tbh I do a little bit of time out on the bottom step but mainly I explain and try to educate my DC's on the effects of not following the rules, ie that we have rules to keep them safe and healthy, rules to teach them how to be considerate and kind, rules so we get enough rest etc I don't shout very much and we all talk things through too much a lot. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be easier if I just punished and made blanket laws for things but I'm trying to get them to make the right choices independently.

i have no idea why he ate the sodding smartie when he was told not to, he doesn't get a lot of sweets generally and when we bake at home they do eat everything and lick bowls and spoons along the way...

Maybe I should just chalk this one up

Sorry my point being that even though he may have understood the rule he may not have understood the reason for it

"The punishment wasn't arbitrary. It would be arbitrary if it was applied to him but not to other children who broke the rule. He was the only one. It would be arbitrary if they repeated the activity next week and he ate the smartie again, but this time they let him have the cookie. It would be arbitrary if they were permitted to eat smarties last time and no-one told them not to this time.

None of those things happened."

You are confusing 'arbitrary' with 'inconsistent'

It was an arbitrary punishment. It wasn't a natural consequence (a biscuit without smarties). It doesn't sound as though the children were warned of the punishment in advance. And as PPs have said, it's really problematic that the punishment was issued so long after the 'crime'. The little boy would have been unable to make the link between sneaking a smartie and being told he can't have the biscuit he made. Therefore creating the sense of injustice and, yes, arbitrary punishment.

Even if we disagree that the punishment was arbitrary or not, we can surely agree that the point I was making is: it makes the child feel as though the punishment is unjust and unreasonable. And that is a shame, it makes for problems with authority in the future.

As for nursery being different than home: of course it is. That's exactly my point. Children of that age behave very differently in groups of children than they do alone. Their behaviour is not necessarily worse, by the way. They are designed to fall in with their peers, copy them, seek their approval. Nursery workers have to support the children though - punishments like this totally unnecessary at this age.

Whether he understood the rule or not he's only 4 years old ffs.

I think we may disagree on definition: arbitrary means 'based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system'. To me, a punishment that is used systematically (consistently) can be harsh without being 'natural'. As long as a rule is applied to everyone each time, it isn't arbitrary at all.

And unfortunately children often feel that punishment is 'unfair'. That doesn't mean it is. You may end up with one child who accepts the punishment and one who doesn't, and if you give in to them, the punishment becomes...arbitrary.

And I don't get what you mean about nurseries and peer groups at all. Sorry.

Natural consequence here would be if you eat the smartie now then you won't have as many in your biscuit. It's ridiculous that she wouldn't let him the biscuit he made, I personally think it's cruel. It didn't harm anyone else for him to eat it.

Why does the nursery not trust the children to make these decisions? I can't believe anyone bakes without licking the bowl or eating a few chocolate chips along the way.

I have to say I subscribe more to your way of thinking re rules. Discipline should guide the child, I am shocked at how many people believe punishments are a healthy and effective way of managing children's behaviour.

In all my years of working in nurseries i have never done something so mean. He is only little.

"shocked at how many people believe punishments are a healthy and effective way of managing children's behaviour."

Why aren't they?

And all this 'natural consequence' stuff is highly confusing to me. Surely there are things a child can do wrong that bear little to no natural consequence - they hit another child, they steal sweets from the shop, they swear. All undesirable behaviours. We shouldn't issue punishments because it's 'unhealthy'? So instead you have a chat with them, explaining that stealing/hitting/swearing is wrong. They notice that the chat wasn't a high price to pay for the satisfaction of hitting, swearing or stealing, so they do it again. What then? Then they get to ten or twelve and they are still swearing, still hitting. They don't understand punishment and think the worst that will happen when they break rules is that a nice adult will sit down with them and explain the rule again. But now it's the age of criminal responsibility. They break a law (stealing or hitting or swearing at someone). What then?

Punishment is not a pleasant part of raising a child. But it teaches them the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. It obviously needs to be balanced with praise and reward, but it is not in itself a bad thing.

I'm astonished that anyone thinks this is appropriate treatment of a 4 year old in a nursery setting. Your poor little boy op, I am so sorry he had that done to him!

1 smartie per biscuit. WTAF?
I would have had enough smarties to replace them all 3 times over. No surprise that a 4-year-old ate a smartie that was given to him.
He ate his smartie, so doesn't get one on his biscuit. It wouldn't even be a punishment, just a logical consequence. Poor kid

Trifleorbust Alfie Kohn puts it so much better than me. You seem to believe (as Kohn writes) "that kids are basically bad and will do terrible things without the threat of punishment hanging over them".

"What punishments — even if they’re euphemistically called “consequences” (so we can feel better about making a child feel bad) — really do is make the child angry, teach him that you get your way in life by using your power over those who are weaker, and make it less likely that he’ll focus on how his actions affect others. Punishment undermines moral development by leading people to ask, “What do they want me to do, and what happens to me if I don’t do it” and actively discouraging them from asking, “What kind of person do I want to be?” (I’ve laid out these arguments in more detail in my books Unconditional Parenting and Beyond Discipline, and I’ve just posted the relevant section of the former book on-line for those who are interested)."

He says "Children learn to make good choices by having the chance to choose, not by following directions." In the examples you gave you look to the child and find out why they are doing those things. You ask them what they can do about it and what can they can do next time they are feeling angry/sad/frustrated. You work with the child to problem solve.

Links here to the above article and aforementioned chapter www.alfiekohn.org/blogs/whypunish/
www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/punishment.htm
www.alfiekohn.org/article/discipline-problem-solution/

(I also don't agree with praise or rewards, see here www.alfiekohn.org/article/five-reasons-stop-saying-good-job/)

I don't think any of this particularly relates to the op, as I don't think eating a smartie is the gateway drug to hitting children/swearing/stealing. He wasn't harming anyone and it was a sweet for his biscuit. He ought to be allowed to choose what he does with it.

OP, you're going to cringe with embarrassment when you look back in a few years and think this was an issue.

Many of the posters on here are removed from the situation and still recognise it was unnecessarily harsh.

I think the considerable level of psychological damage this poor child has undoubtedly suffered needs to be addressed.

OP I'd consult your solicitor and start counselling to try and limit the damage done to your little one. Also Ofsted needs notifying immediately.

The impact of smartiegate cannot be underestimated.

What insancerre said.

Thank you all, yes I would've given him the choice of making a decision about the smartie and the natural consequence being he wouldn't have had as many on his biscuit.

So in terms of having a chat with Miss X how should I articulate my gripe?, I need to try and stay short and concise so I can stay on track as I know she'll just beat me down and I'll leave flummoxed, thus rendering my plight pointless, as I'll feel I haven't raised it effectively.

Don't forget childline inthenick [Grin]

Just tell her Ds was really upset at not getting his biscuit and ask if he was really that badly behaved during the activity, as its not like him normally

I would leave it at that, as there is no point in taking it further. But it might make her think about how she could have handled it differently

Arietty: I am not even entertaining the idea that I think kids are 'basically bad' 😂 I agree with him that children need to be given choices, but I disagree that punishment AND reward are appropriate as ways to teach them how to do that well. Not the only methods - of course they need appropriate modelling and discussion of effects of their choices as well.

And I don't think eating a smartie is a gateway either. I do think the little rules about little things help toddlers to understand (in microcosm) about the bigger things. It is an illustration of the idea that there are instructions and rules they need to follow.

One of the key factors in education in Scandinavian and Eastern European countries is up until the age of 6 or 7 children are not just given freedom to play, but they are gradually introduced to activities where they have to learn to follow directions, pay attention to the teacher and control their natural impulses. it takes most children that long to understand the concept of following directions. They are constantly refocused and re-directed. They are not expected to always get it and they are unlikely to be handed out harsh punishments for not doing it! If impulsive 4 year olds cause the teacher to clamp down on heavily on discipline like this, it's possible she's teaching the wrong age group. But all teachers make mistakes and bad judgement calls sometimes.

What makes you think she'll beat you down? Have you needed to address issues with her approach previously?

I'd say insancerre has it about right.