To be so angry with nursery

[Rockingaround]

Hi all,
Not sure what to do, I only know that I'm so angry but not sure if I'm overreacting.

DS just turned 4 last weekend. I picked DS from his nursery (within primary school) yesterday. He started in September after being at pre school, his session is 8.45-11.45. His former and current teachers have said he's a really good boy, good at listening and following the rules etc

Anyway, at pick-up he was balling his eyes out, snotty, gasping - in a right state, in all honesty I have never seen him this upset.

One of the nursery staff said " We were making biscuits and none of the children ate a smartie except for DS so Miss X has decided he is not allowed a biscuit because of it".

After DS had calmed down he told me he'd eaten a smartie. They told him he wasn't allowed to eat it but he carried on making his biscuit. Only at the end of the session when they were filling out the biscuits did they say he wasn't allowed to take his home because he'd eaten a smartie. I asked if they'd warned him that would happen if he ate a smartie and he said no.

I couldn't speak to them at that moment as I was so angry, I'm thinking g of writing a letter....? What would you do?

I'm doing his birthday party today but I'll check back in later. Thank you

[Coolcandy]

Completely unnecessary, I work in a similar setting and would never treat a young child of 4 like this, it should have been explained to him, at the time, that because he has eaten his smartie when he was told not to, he is now taking home a biscuit without a smartie whereas the rest of the kids are taking home a biscuit and a smartie and that should've been the end of it.

[ilongforlustre]

This isn't about "embedded bad behaviour" or not knowing that "rules are rules". It was a smartie for crying out loud. He is four years old. This is where he learns this stuff. A simple "oh dear, now there won't be enough smarties for the cookies" would suffice.

And if there is not enough time for children who need explanations and reasons in school... then school is not fit for purpose is it? God forbid that we should encourage our children to think.

If it helps OP I have taught many bright, clever and well behaved children who would have heard the rule that the smarties must not be eaten now, nodded sagely and promptly stuffed in the lot as soon as look at them. On account of being 4 and living in the moment. This is precisely why four packs of smarties were invented.

[user1475439961]

Bless him! I'm extremely surprised that they admitted to not giving him a warning before not allowing him not have a biscuit.
You could say that you were surprised at their over reaction to eating a smartie and that you understand that lessons have to be learnt etc but that's taking it too far. Nobody was hurt during the smartie theft!!

[futurelotterywinner]

Interesting!

I'm a teacher and a parent, a notoriously strict (but fair) teacher and parent at that!
Almost always I read these threads with interest and have a chuckle and a sigh of exasperation at reading precious parents ramblings about their perfect child! My pet hate is adults not following through with punishments and allowing or rewarding bad behaviour.

However
Obviously without knowing the full story (it goes without saying op MUST find out exactly what happened from staff before taking this to head/letter of complaint)
It is completely unfair and disproportionate to allow him to continue making a biscute then not take it home. At age 4, my punishment, had I explicitly told the children not to eat the smarties (knowing 4 year olds, actually even 10 year olds, I would have begun with 'rules' and behaviour expectations before the task) would have been to say 'oh dear, we only have enough for (insert number)of smarties each, as you have eaten one you will have one less to decorate with. THAT would be consequence enough! Had they eaten a biscuit it would have been 'you are very lucky that I have a spare biscuit, but that is the last one, if you or anyone else eats a biscuit, they won't have one to take home.'

This punishment, on the face of it, is extremely harsh! I work in a deprived area with many behaviour issues in my class and wouldn't even have chosen this punishment (for a first offence!) for the most difficult of children (not that it matters who it is)

OP, ask staff if you can have a chat about Friday, see what their side of the story is. Those asking for her job are also harsh- a warning by means of reporting to head if not satisfied with their response is enough...if more happens in the future then I'd expect more follow up.

[Rockingaround]

Thank you for your replies, it's really helpful. Many of you are right in that I only know what my DS has told me. You're also right in the sense that I already really dislike Miss X from what I've seen of her classroom/behavior management so far. What do you think if I go in tomorrow morning and ask if I can have a word at her earliest convenience. I'll simply say that I'd like to understand what happens on FRiday as DS was so upset. I'll listen to what she says and then say thank you and leave... Then I would have two sided description of what happened. I could then decide how I feel about her response before essentially have to argue with how she handled it ... Or do I need to state my disagreement when I speak to her in the first instance? I'm actually a bit scared of her

The problem with sending him back to his old pre-school is that he's out grown it, all of his friends have now moved on and he's so much bigger than the others that are there, he's a year or so older than most of them.

[Trifleorbust]

No, you don't have to complain or express disagreement on the spot. Check your facts first - it's a sensible first step.

[BakeOffBiscuits]

Go with your first suggestion- you want to know what happened to make him so upset.
As you say you're a bit scared of her, I think you should then leave and take it up with the HT. It isn't just this incident, you've witnessed other incidents, so you should take it further.

[Rockingaround]

Ok, I'll just ask what happened to make him so upset. I'll leave DS with my friend for ten mins while I speak with her so that Miss X has to speak to me rather than patronising/manipulating him. I'll then mull over the info I have. And report back here of course!

Even though I'm hurt on behalf of my son iyswim, I've never seen him that upset before, it could possibly have been handled better than I am presuming. So the least I can do - especially feeling as angry as I do - is give her the benefit of the doubt.

[futurelotterywinner]

Yes,
Go in and ask what happened, be prepared if she can't speak to you properly when the children are entering, it's always really busy first thing in entering so may be best if you can ask to see her at the end if she can't speak first thing. Definitely don't complain to her, just ascertain facts. X

[Rockingaround]

Thank you x

[adamharriet]

I have a daughter exactly the same age and I would be very upset if that had happened to her. Entirely inappropriate. Poor baby.

[Rainer]

This reminds me of the time my ds was caught blue tongued from helping himself to sweets at nursery. I only found out about it after he left. No telling off. Just a giggle about it.

[Mummybear1988]

What I think isn't nice is that they let him finish making the biscuit then told him he couldn't have it. They should have sent him away from the activity if he wasn't going to have the biscuit.
I'm a teacher and I'd have given him the biscuit but that's just me

[Gonzales27]

I consider myself to be a pretty strict mum, but that is way too harsh / disproportionate.

I agree with an earlier comment though that often the best behaved kids get more upset when told off as they're not used to it. My son is a bit of a goody-two-shoes but his teacher (who loves him!) told us that he needs to build up more resilience to getting told off or when just getting things wrong as he often cries (he's just turned 6). I think he's just too eager to please and gets upset when he gets any form of negative feedback (which we will work on).

He'd have been distraught if your situation had happened to him!

I'd def be having a quiet but reasonable discussion with the teacher.

[WeatherwaxOrOgg]

A similar thing happened to one of my children, many years ago when she was also 4. She was given a creme egg in the home queue and told not to eat it. I need to add that she was an impeccably behaved child until now and the school would have known this.

She couldn't contain herself and bit some of the top. The teacher saw and snatched the egg from her and threw it into the bin, leaving her crying. Luckily for me, the assistant saw and immediately came to her rescue, cuddling her and offering quiet reassurance. I know because my child told me, not the assistant.

I was really, really angry. I see exactly what everyones saying about 4 year olds following instructions etc, but she was just so well behaved normally. The school always remarked to me how she was kind to the others and always tried to befriend children alone in the playground etc. I am a pretty strict parent and don't tolerate disobedience and so I see how what I'm saying looks contradictory, but I really think this was spiteful. I know rules are rules and my (mostly) well behaved children have lost out many times to children who disobey but don't get punished - in this case though, the others wouldn't have lost out, they'd just get to eat their smartie later on.

For her to disobey, it really must have been either irresistible or she didn't hear the instruction, which she claims she didn't (who knows? When I spoke to the assistant later, she conceded that it was possible that all the children hadn't heard, but she also was shocked at the violence of the snatching of the egg - maybe it was unprofessional but she did actually put a complaint in about it). Either way, I don't agree that teachers of such young children should put them in this position (for eg, put the eggs in their book bags, or don't give the smarties out until they're required).

It's nursery, not prison. To make a little boy make his biscuit and then not let him have it seems nothing other than spiteful. Added to this, it sounds like there was confusion over the smarties anyway.

I wouldn't be able to send my child back to a place that punished a child so out of proportion. Biscuit making is supposed to be fun - nursery is supposed to be fun. Discipline has to be maintained but it's not the army.

I would have said, "Ah you've eaten your smartie already - now your biscuit won't be so pretty!" but in a gentle voice. He'd see the consequence of his action but without having his soul crushed.

If you were making cookies at home, would you allow him to eat them? I suspect you would, and if you didn't and he sneaked one, would you actually make him help you make them and then deny him one afterwards? Because I would consider that a bit weird.

Your poor son, I wish I didn't know about this, it's making me feel so sad.

[WeatherwaxOrOgg]

And Gonzales, I agree and my daughter was distraught.

[SooBee61]

He may have just not heard. I remember still on my first day at primary school not hearing the teacher say we were only to use 4 colours on the front of our rough books. I used lots of crayons and got my hand hit with a ruler (yes, that far back) for my pains. Never forgotten it. I hated that woman from that day - I remember her name, Miss Stone.

[Bettercallsaul1]

Stony of name and stony of heart, Sobee61.

My daughter has never recovered from getting the stripes on her bee "wrong" at nursery, when she was four. She painted the ones that were supposed to be black yellow and vice versa. The (obnoxious) TA reacted as if it were deliberate vandalism!

[petitpois55]

She's never recovered Better Perhaps, you need to teach her some resilience. The amount of drama queens on this thread is fucking funny.

[Bettercallsaul1]

There was a certain amount of irony (and hyperbole) in my post, petitpois55! Perhaps look at your own sense of humour before posting such unpleasant comments?

[BakeOffBiscuits]

Did you manage to speak to anyone today Rocking?

[ChocolateWombat]

Well OP, I'm glad you had calmed down by last night and were able to see that going in calmly to just see what had happened was a good idea. A fact finding mission which is calmly conducted normally delivers better results than going in critically and shouting the odds.

It would be good to hear their response. So many of these threads where the OP says eventually they will go in and find out some info and report back, never result in report backs. Seems to me that often on further investigation, the staff are able to throw light on what happened and events often weren't quite as first reported, and nowhere near as extreme or outrageous. However, after many many posters have shrieked 'unreasonable, outrageous' and sometimes demanded that people be sacked, reported to social services or other extreme actions, even before the full story has been heard, perhaps OPs feel a bit embarrassed to return and say it all turned out to be far less exciting and outrageous.

Normally what transpires is events weren't as extreme as first seemed. There has been some kind of misunderstanding. Staff did not intend to cause upset and their actions seem more reasonable once the full story is known. They happily apologise if child was upset, but also explain the reasoning behind their actions and approach to the situation....which appears much more sensible than on first glance without all the facts....and the OP and child move forward. Occasionally it appears that yes, someone was cruel and nasty to the child and occasionally further action is needed....but it is occasional, not the norm, which Inalways think is worth remembering, when as parents something happens and we want to make a knee jerk reaction. Usually best to take a deep breath, consider further and gather more info if needed, BEFORE getting outraged.

Anyway, hope for OP and son that this too turns out not to be the big deal, so many people seem to think it is.

[Blondeshavemorefun]

What happened op? Did you talk to teacher? What was her version?

[LuluNTutu]

My DS is the same age and I would be speaking to the teacher about this. The nursery sounds unbelievably harsh. Good luck with getting it sorted.

[Rockingaround]

Hi all, yes I went in this morning.

Miss X said that as they were putting the biscuits in the oven DS are a smartie. She said that she is very strict because she has to be and that she has 30 other children to consider.

I said that I appreciate that, although I believe a natural consequence would've worked better, if she'd have just removed a smartie from his biscuit so he had one less, rather than confiscating what he'd made. I said that I although I appreciate he shouldn't have eaten a smartie, the punishment didn't fit the crime and that it was too harsh, my DS felt embarrassed and I felt that it was spiteful.

She replied saying she wasn't spiteful, I said the act was, even if it wasn't her intention. I also said that I felt I had to advocate for my son and I had to tell her I thought the incident was dealt with disproportionately as his mother, I needed to communicate these things in order to keep the lines of communication open.


Surprisingly she agreed she could've given him one less smartie on his biscuit and that she could see how it would appear too harsh to me. I also asked her to consider the impact it'd had on my son as he's never been in trouble before.

I felt I had to raise the issue as we were not happy; she did listen and consider my gripe, although she remained her stance that she had to manage the whole class... I felt good that I stayed calm. I obvs didn't expect her to apologise but felt I had spoken up on behalf of my son and fought his corner. It went much better than I expected.