To be upset with school?

[PointyJat]

My ds started school in September. In his class is another boy (I'll call him Fred) who randomly kicked another child, causing bruises in the first week. Yesterday I was called in as Fred had punched my son in the playground, my son was upset and didn't fight back, school says it was a random act (ie they hadn't been arguing or playing, Fred just walked up and hit him).

His teacher said they are watching Fred carefully and he is being assessed. This morning, I found out from other parents that at least four other children have been hurt by Fred, each time it's random, eg one girl was hit in the eye during class, one boy was pushed over when he walked out of the toilet. School didn't tell me about all these other incidents.

I'm really upset that Fred is continuing to hurt children and the teachers don't have a handle on it. I need to see the teacher again to find out what's happening now i know about all the other incidents.They need to protect the children from injury but aibu to think the school haven't done enough so far? It's not just little pushes or shoves

It's not a case of thinking there is nothing else the school can do. It's a case of having no idea what the school is doing. No other parents know what support ds is getting in school, or why he is getting that - why should they?

Sirzy, of course other parents aren't entitled to know precisely what support Fred is getting or what the school is doing in relation to him. But if Fred is still hurting other children, whatever the school is doing is inadequate, and a parent in OP's position is entitled to ask what they will do to safeguard their child. Frankly, it would be ridiculous to say that OP must wait for her child to be hurt again before being given that information. Suppose next time round the injury is really serious?

A parent in OP's position is entitled to ask what they will do to safeguard their child.

This. I didn't want to know the detail of what they were doing with 'Janie' but I did want to know that they were keeping an eye on DD and keeping her safe.

It is impossible for any child to be supervised 24/7 even with the best systems possible and all the work in the background going on sometimes a child will lash out.

Some people seem to believe that schools, and in particular 1-1 workers, have a magical ability to "cure" problems. Sadly it doesn't work like that!

Yes, Serendipity, when it comes to what should be done, what they can do they must do. But it is a matter of opinion what should be done (whether it would be effective) and they can't spend money they don't have. We have no way of knowing what they have tried already.

Serendipity, are you seriously a governor?

Do you realise that schools have to pay the first £6k of 1:1 support before they get any extra funding?

Have you any idea how difficult that extra funding is to come by?

I know kids who are desperate for 1:1 support but the LEA just don't go around authorising these things on a whim.

I understand the point of view of the parents of "hitters" asking not to ostracize their children, but what shall the parents of the "victims" (can't find a better word) do then?
If I know that by going next to someone there is a random risk of me being hit, I would avoid this person, wouldn't you??
So of course my instinct would be to advise my DCs to avoid the child hitting them.

Chill out OP. The boy is 4, give him a chance! Dds both were whacked a few times when they were little. It's not a big deal. Your ds is not made of porcelain and wasn't injured beyond a bruise or two. Tell him to stay away from Fred, if you want. But please do not engage other parents to gang up on Fred and his parents. I've know several kids who were once "Freds" grow up to be gentle well-adjusted teens. Please give him a chance.

Ds (and dd) had statements in place before they entered any educational provision. Ds had constant 1 to 1 support for from being aged three until he left school aged 19. It helped a lot, it kept him in school tbh but it didn't solve everything, he hit some children he disrupted quite a lot of lessons early on too.
From the sounds of it OP's school sound proactive, Fred is only four and he's hit what? five or six children since he started in September IME that isn't particularly extreme at four tbh on a bad day ds managed at least that before lunch and I can't imagine that that will be considered as evidence enough for providing school with funding for a full time 1 to 1 TA.

YouTheCat, yes I am a governor, and yes, I know about SEN support. I also know that the £6K support that schools have to give to children with SEN comes out of delegated SEN support funds, i.e. that it is additional to their basic budget, and that they don't have to apply specially in relation to individual children: it's a funding formula based on the number of children in the school with SEN at defined times.

I also know exactly how difficult it is to get funds out of LAs, but also that it is possible to do so. That's what things like the SEN tribunal are there for. And that sitting back and saying "They won't give us the money so we won't bother" is definitely not the way to achieve it.

But there is nothing to suggest for a second that the school in question are just sitting back.

But of course with your vast experience you will know just how long and drawn out every step of the route to anything like that is anyway so even the most proactive school are still going to have to fight and struggle to get the right support in place - actually the most proactive schools probably fight even more than any other.

Like a PP said though as all we know so far is of 6 times a reception child has pushed others that isn't really going to be enough alone to start pushing for any extra support LEA wise - of course though non of us know what else is going on though.

Obviously at the moment there is no assessment for this child so presumably no allocated funding at all. We don't know he has SN and we are unlikely to find out. All we know is that the OP is worried about her child because this other child frequently lashes out at others, and I think that is legitimate grounds for concern. Of course the school should push for assessment if they believe the issue is SN related, but people can't expect miracles, nor is there a bottomless pit of money to give every child who sometimes behaves like this 1:1 support.

But nobody is sitting back and saying that. The school are having the child assessed. These things can take months, if not longer to even organise.

Your ds is not made of porcelain and wasn't injured beyond a bruise or two. - That may only be the extent now but left unchecked it could very well escalate. I cannot believe how much people are minimising the violence.

Where has anyone said that it should be tolerated?

What an OTT response which simply shows a lack of understanding and ability to read the thread

Certainly the school may not be "just sitting back", Sirzy. My point is solely that they should be capable of telling OP what they are doing to comply with their safeguarding duty in relation to her child.

People are much too ready to say "It's too difficult to get support or funding" or "it takes too long" and therefore that there is nothing the school can do. If that's the line the school takes, for sure there is nothing that will happen because they will do nothing to make it happen. There are time limits to these processes, and LAs also tend to have emergency procedures in place as well. What concerns me is the number of people who are happy to say that there is nothing the school can do when clearly that is not correct.

If the school has started the assessment process then clearly there is more going on that six incidents when other children have been injured. And no school is entitled to say that six incidents is acceptable, because of those pesky safeguarding duties.

Trifle, whilst the assessment is going through the child is presumably on the SEN register and the school therefore has delegated SEN funding of in the region of £6K over and above the standard £4K it gets in relation to each pupil.

It doesn't take longer than months to organise assessment. If the child has SEN and may need an EHC Plan, the LA must by law agree to assessment withn six weeks and carry out and complete the assessment within approximately ten weeks after that. If an EHC Plan is justified, the LA must issue the Plan within 20 weeks of the original request for assessment. Even if it decides against, the school has the benefit of the advice obtained during the assessment process and would be expected to implement it.

I really do wonder why so many people are so happy for the LA and school to be let off the hook in terms of their statutory duties. As I've said before, would you really all shrug your shoulders, smile and suck it up if Fred knocks your child over and causes serious injury? I suspect it's got a lot to do with the contrarian attitude of AIBU.

Sirzy, I think it is you who are demonstrating an inability to read my posts and indeed the thread. A number of people have responded to OP along the lines that she shouldn't expect the school to do any more.

This thread scares me, pointy jar just looking for help and reassurance. The school shouldn't have to say how many times Fred has hurt others. The problem is that Fred is hurting others randomly. Fred needs help obviously, with whatever issues he has but the other kids deserve to be safe. Schools responsibilty. Having had a child that has been hurt by boys from one family without school telling me, when questioned it was always a game that went wrong. These kids have issues that need addressing before someone else is hurt. Schools need to monitor those kids that they know hurt others. If SEN is part of it, that needs dealing with. And before I'm accused of anything, I have a DD with special needs.

The school cannot tell you about the other incidents due to data protection, however you can ask the school what they are doing to safeguard your children from other incidents.

Wow Womb have you ever met a child with Sen such as autism?! Some at four would push because they don't know how to get another child to play. Or the world is so confusing they meltdown/lash out? They don't want it to happen but they can't help and panic and stress.

Violence is never acceptable but for a child with a brain that is wired differently they need to be TAUGHT! And it will happen through patience, compassion and a shit load of support from parents, school and a bloody good LSA. These things don't happen overnight and it takes a while to learn triggers.

Yes it's horrible when other children are hit and yes if the child has no Sen then that's a whole other ball game.

they need to put some support systems in while he is assessed. sadly this is not likely to happen. often in these cases they fail fred, and they fail the other children in the class. fred will get more support (and your children will be safer) if you deal with this well. one way is asking what procedures are going to be put inplace to ensure your child is safe...

Womb - You do know you could have the child with sn who lashes out because they are distressed. Try to remember that.

if I was with a man with asperger's who hit me

You do understand the difference between a child and an adult don't you?

My DS2 at 7 had more empathy and understanding than you. He had a Fred as a friend but was perfectly able to understand that Fred couldn't help it when he hit out, even if he was on the receiving end.

Womb your post is incredibly ignorant & your attitude towards disability stinks but I CBA to explain why.

I think the issue serendipity is that assessments etc often don't lead to the support needed. I agree with you that the schools should be acting right away (they may be in this case - can't really tell from the OP). Some schools are a lot better at this than others. Ds3's was hopeless - they just didn't have the necessary expertise - luckily ds3 is completely unfazed by being bashed so apart from gettimg the occasional hump about being belted 'on purpose' (his words - I did explain to him it wasn't that simple) he wasn't fussed.

The number of incidents could certainly have been decreased with cheap as chips strategies put in place.