To be upset with school?

[PointyJat]

My ds started school in September. In his class is another boy (I'll call him Fred) who randomly kicked another child, causing bruises in the first week. Yesterday I was called in as Fred had punched my son in the playground, my son was upset and didn't fight back, school says it was a random act (ie they hadn't been arguing or playing, Fred just walked up and hit him).

His teacher said they are watching Fred carefully and he is being assessed. This morning, I found out from other parents that at least four other children have been hurt by Fred, each time it's random, eg one girl was hit in the eye during class, one boy was pushed over when he walked out of the toilet. School didn't tell me about all these other incidents.

I'm really upset that Fred is continuing to hurt children and the teachers don't have a handle on it. I need to see the teacher again to find out what's happening now i know about all the other incidents.They need to protect the children from injury but aibu to think the school haven't done enough so far? It's not just little pushes or shoves

So difficult. I have been on both sides of this. With my daughter who has trouble with another boy when she was in reception. He was already being labeled 'naughty' age 4. As it was he just had a chaotic home life. The school kept working with him and by the end of primary he was fully integrated in the class and cared for by his peer group -despite still being a bit of live wire. But if I and other parents had had their way, we'd have been calling for exclusions and the like - but school stood their ground and worked at it (and us).

And now I have a potential 'Fred'. Emotionally immature compared to his classmates, which at 5 makes a huge difference. We've been through WillyGate (he was pulling his trousers down in the playground - thus making me the talk of the school gate for a good few weeks), hitting and pushing (when people get in his space and he (as an almost non-verbal child) can't tell them to get out of his way.

Actually deficits in speech and language cause huge behavioural problems - and is ongoing.
See Guardian Link

It is by no means a given that additional needs = additional money. If you have a well-funded LA that adequately funds SEN then yes maybe. If not.... you're likely not to get anything until an Education, Health and Care Plan is in place, or you have grounds for going to a tribunal and win.

There may also be social services assessments ongoing. Might not be exclusively about SEN. In which case the school is in a difficult position because it will have a huge safeguarding duty toward Fred. Yes of course they also have safeguarding duties toward other children but it's sometimes pretty complex to balance the various needs of different children.

Trifle did you attend school?

My Fred has been ignored, goaded, ostracised. Parents have had their gossip .... God knows what they say about me???? The mum of two SN children!

Do you think in 10 years time these kids will be needed help because Fred hit them as children?
I know Fred will need the help ..... He'll still be trying to understand his behaviours and why he can't connect with other people or why they can't connect with him. Fred will punish himself regularly because he has no control over the behaviour but all he wants to do is control it and have friends just like everyone else!

I attended school. Can't see the relevance really. I appreciate that your son has many problems and I sympathise as I say, but your comment minimises violence against other children and is inappropriate.

Changing .... Thank you. Throughout my concerns 3 years of school they have just said "Fred is Fred!" He was quirky ... Now not so much. They are listening to me now but just Orestes me that without the backing of the school it's difficult to get anything done.
I wish I'd have created a bigger fuss earlier on but I listened to them.

He's struggling so much at the moment ... I've asked for a home-school book so I have evidence of what's happened and so I can talk to Fred about it when he gets home so we can both understand his day and discuss his behaviours.

As far as I can see it doesn't matter if he has sen. The school have a duty of care to all children not just ones with additional needs. Other children should not have to just put up with being hurt and intimidated because he can't help it. If it isn't his fault and they can't adequately supervise him then he needs to be suspended pending assessment. Not as a punishment but to protect the other kids. Yes he is only 4 but so are they and he could seriously hurt someone if he is just lashing out randomly with no provocation. It isn't as though they can just try to avoid triggers when no one knows what they are or even if there are any in particular. To say nothing of his own safety if he tries it with an older child or one who has an elder brother or sister who may, quite understandably, decide to give him a pasting. The adults need to be taking control of this situation. Wait and see doesn't cut it.

SarahSarah76..... Really !!!! That's what we are now labelling these children with SN ... Bullies????

My son is one of the most kind and wonderful kids you'll ever meet. He has a severely disabled brother who attends a special school. He sings to him, holds hands, gives up his favourite toy if it will make his DB happy. He's an amazing kid ... Unfortunately his brain is wired differently. No matter how many punches from the 'wrong' person he gets .... It won't change anything, he has no control over this rage .... Hopefully with help and possibly medication he will be able to take control of his life and his actions.
Up until that point he will just have me... To protect him from himself!

Do you think in 10 years time these kids will be needed help because Fred hit them as children? - Actually it depends, if a child is continuely hit by Fred, then had their feelings dismissed because poor Fred doesn't understand what he's doing then yes, a child may need help in years to come. I've seen it happen. My adult brother who was hit and bullied throughout his school years has had breakdowns as an adult over it all. I don't think it's fair to minimise the impact a child hitting another child can have, do children not deserve to feel safe from harm at school? it's sad that a child who used to love school is fearful of going in case they are hit.

Of course all this can be avoided provided adequate steps are put into place for the benefit of both Fred and the child being hit. In OPs situation she feels the school aren't dealing with it in a way that is protecting her child enough and it is completely understandable for her to have concerns.

Stary like I said the professionals will want to assess the child within school, that's how the system works

Dollop- you can also go through your gp. Ask the receptionists to find out which gp has experience of whatever you think the problem is (asd etc) or ask who has camhs experoence. Then switch your child to them & ask to be referred for assessment to pead. They then refer to camhs/ot/salt etc & they then suggest stratagies/diagnose/push for ed psych involvement.

You can also ask to see senCo at school. Or directly speak to lea. Although it can be hard to find the right person to contact at lea they do deal with things effectively and 'quickly'. The send department of your local council are worth a call. & sendias service (although ours was shit) & ipsea (I think, who know the legal side of everything). Mp's sometimes give people kick up the butt also if you write to them.

God this thread is depressing.

My son needed additional funding. He already had a very large team of professionals around him & we did not have to battle for the funding at all - it still took eight months to come through.

You can't just kick kids out of a classroom for most of a school year because funding takes a while to come through.

You can't just kick kids out of a classroom for most of a school year because funding takes a while to come through. - I agree, but what would you suggest to protect other children from a child who has violent outbursts? Surely you accept that something must be done whilst waiting for funding? Or would it be fine for other children to be dreading school every morning because they don't know if they'll be hit that day?

My DC's class has a 'Fred'. He has hurt children and the teacher and is now on a limited timetable with 1:1 support. There is no diagnosis, but he is cheeky and charming one minute and flies into violent unprovoked rages the next. My DC has not been hurt, but I can't say they are unaffected by the disruption to the class (he had their experienced teacher in tears after attacking her, despite his '1:1' TA, which got him suspended for 5 days).

I have found the any gossip and blaming to be rather unhelpful. My sympathies are with the children hurt, Fred, his parents and the teacher, in no particular order. Is it a worrying situation, but joining in a witch hunt when I don't know all the facts is not helpful and it's not behaviour I want to model for my dc.

What can I do? Keep an eye on the situation the best I can. Demand answers if my DC gets hurt, and want to know how they can ensure their safety in the future. Explain to them that some children find it more difficult to stay calm etc and it's not his fault. I've told them to be kind to Fred but to stay well away if he is angry/disruptive. Refuse to join in 'gossip' and tried to give a balance to any playground chatter. I make a point of speaking to his mum in the playground (small talk), she is nice although I wouldn't say I know her well.

I'm not saying I'm perfect and that that is the only way to feel about it, but I'm not sure there are many other reasonable approaches? It seems to be one of those topics which polarises many people "Fred is savage and shouldn't be around my child" "my child has additional needs and can't help it and other children getting hurt is inevitable". I think a little understanding and compassion go a long way in both directions. Would I be angry if my dc got hurt - of course, and if I'm honest I'm annoyed that so much attention is diverted away from the other children in class. But I'm grown up enough to realise that that's life and there is nothing to be gained form blaming anyone for it.

Yeah let's just kick kids with sn out of school for the years it sometimes takes for them to be assessed

Where did the OP say he has SN? We have no idea whether he has SN or not. Being aggressive and hitting children is not a SN all of its own. 'Assessment' can literally just mean 'we are assessing the situation and logging the injuries'.

My DS does have SN, and I had to remove him from school because of bullying from a violent boy. But yes, it's soooooo depressing that people want a physically abusive boy to be prevented from punching their children. They can just be forced into doing what I did and disadvantaging their own child (who has never laid a finger on anyone) instead.

Well the conversations after drop off this morning were along the lines of ' pointy, how is your boy today, my son/daughter said he got hurt by Fred yesterday' then various parents told of other incidents involving Fred. I don't know what to make of it, it's wrong for parents to start a witch hunt but it's also wrong if young children are going to school and getting hurt by a child known to be violent. I will keep quiet at the gates as I don't want to get involved in this further, but I don't think I have any choice but to tell my son to steer clear of Fred. It seems the delay in assessing him is causing harm all round.

Another parent of a 7 year old 'Fred' here.

We are trying so hard to have him assessed, to get him the help and support he needs. The trouble is, the system is broken.

Even parents who are able too advocate for their child can't get help for their children. There aren't enough resources in education and the NHS to give children the help they need. When trying to get help, you just get dismissed and told that they can't do anything to help you or push you onto another service. Maybe it would be a different story if we could afford to get him assessed privately. I say this as a parent about two this years into their journey trying to get 'Fred' help.

My Fred is also a serious danger to himself, I'm worried for his safety but there is no help for him. I worry constantly, what will have happened at school today, will he hurt me today, will he hurt somebody else today, how could he put himself in such a dangerous situation that would potentially risk his life today.

He'd love to be suspended from school, as a school refuser, and it would probably make my life much easier if I let him stay at home. But I also know if this happened, then it would be really, really hard to ever get him to go to school again. EVER. Age 7.

The system is broken. But please don't blame Fred. Blame the local authorities, politicians, health services and schools who pass the buck rather than taking responsibility for helping 'Fred.'

Peppa so sorry to hear that. The system does seem to be broken. Everyone is suffering.

Schools need to look at the environment & the triggers (my speciality is 'violent' outburts - although I would use the term 'distressed' outbursts for the majority of cases).

Obviously the actual response will need to be different depending on each child (& whilst funding can take time - schools have other resources - such as behavioural teams they can call in faster - extra funding will only be provided in extreme cases anyway).

What won't help is booting out a child already struggling with school or starting some sort of parental witch hunt.

My youngest son had a couple of children prone to outbursts (for various different reasons) in his class. I gave him a quick explanation, reminded him never to lash out back, suggested he avoided said children at trigger points I could identify from home & paid some interest in things the school were doing (they were a bit clueless tbh).

What I refused to do was sign a shameful petition to get a child removed (I kid you not).

Kids should be safe at school, full stop, issues for Fred or no issues for Fred. I would be clear no-one is suggesting removing Fred but obviously kids need to be kept safe from him, how is the school doing that? That is the only thing you and the other parents need to worry about imho.

Do people realise just how difficult it is for the schools to get extra funding? LA's are broke they are being forced to make cutbacks, ds who works for the LA has just been told he needs to make £80,000 cuts, these cuts will be passed onto schools like the last £80,000 was and the £125,000 before it. Schools are losing TAs and teachers because they can't afford to keep them. LAs force schools to jump through numerous hoops when they apply for funding because in essence it delays them having to fund the support.
Dd has a statement and TA support (she has never hit anyone in her life) last February school asked for more hours, they supplied evidence of need and minute by minute detail of how the support would be used (dd wasn't in school full time). LA refused in spite of the fact it is discriminatory and so illegal for dd not to be in school full time. I appealed her statement, the Tribunal is in January, the LA will give the hours before then so that their conduct isn't questioned but they have saved themselves 9 months funding so far.

Nonfat has the right approach imo.

And yes underpar - although it's also not great for Fred to be so distressed he is doing this.

Talk to schools if your child is upset, if Fred's parents are approachable then find out whether they can be supported in accessing whatever is helpful & keep an eye on the school and their attitude. Honestly half the bashings ds3 received could have been avoided if the school had used a countdown timer (can be made from cardboard & Velcro - doesn't need funding) as almost every bash was from a child struggling with transitions).

Devillish my son was the target of a petition to get him out. The HT offered the ringleaders pen and paper to withdraw their children instead.

Distressed outbursts is a very good way to put it Devilish. A behavioural teacher that my Fred has seen said to view them as panic attacks. However, even if professionals give this insight into the behaviour to schools, I can see that it is difficult for teachers and parents of children being hurt by Fred to see them in these terms, when the hurting seems to be a deliberate nasty act.

Pointy your are right, everyone is suffering. I'm determined to get my Fred the help and support he needs, but in the meantime the other children at school suffer, the child's siblings suffer, the parent's health and relationship are probably suffering, and so on.

When I have the support and help for my Fred, I'm determined to raise this issue with my MP and anyone who will listen.

Before having a Fred, I'm ashamed to admit, I probably would have been just as naive as a lot of posters on this thread and thought that help was easy to come by.

Fred should be homeschooled??! Taken out of school? A little naive. I don't wish to imagine what his home circumstances COULD be like? His behaviour is worrying and I don't expect home is the aort of environment that would benefit changing this behaviour - which is what is desirable. You have to trust school to work on the behaviour/situation

Yes quite insan1ty - and chances are Fred won't get any additional funding anyway. Although ds1 got the additional funding approved 8 months after requesting it, 2 staff then had to appointed which ended up taking us to a year before full support was in place. And he is a very extreme case & his funding application was not challenged at all.