To be upset with school?

[PointyJat]

My ds started school in September. In his class is another boy (I'll call him Fred) who randomly kicked another child, causing bruises in the first week. Yesterday I was called in as Fred had punched my son in the playground, my son was upset and didn't fight back, school says it was a random act (ie they hadn't been arguing or playing, Fred just walked up and hit him).

His teacher said they are watching Fred carefully and he is being assessed. This morning, I found out from other parents that at least four other children have been hurt by Fred, each time it's random, eg one girl was hit in the eye during class, one boy was pushed over when he walked out of the toilet. School didn't tell me about all these other incidents.

I'm really upset that Fred is continuing to hurt children and the teachers don't have a handle on it. I need to see the teacher again to find out what's happening now i know about all the other incidents.They need to protect the children from injury but aibu to think the school haven't done enough so far? It's not just little pushes or shoves

Great HT insanity

And yes peppa - a panic attack is often very accurate. Unfortunately children behaving this way are often very vulnerable & really need that hard to access support rather than petitions and playground whispers.

Slightly different but my daughter is in pre school and if she was hit by another child we would be told but would not be told who the culprit was so to stop a witch hunt.

I'd recommend the explosive child book to anyone with kids who lash out (mine don't lash out at others, but do each other and me & dad)

And margo sunderlands books. And playful parenting.

Pointy- I understand telling your child to stay away from Fred, but isn't there a middle ground? Especially with such a young kid. Couldn't you advise he stays away if no adults are there but that it might be worth suggesting to your child that they try asking an adult (play ground assistant/ta etc) if they can help your child ask Fred to play a game together?

For what it's worth when I was in primary school in befriended all the 'loners'. I guess I kind of was one having adhd myself, but acadmicly high achieving and bored in class. I took it upon myself to teach other kids to read, to ask to sit beside the (allways in our school) boys who got stuck sitting on their own, to set up games they could join in at break. I went to a lovely primary that was the only school that took in kids with disabilities/lac kids or kids expelled from other schools and the social learning I received here was hugely influential and these opportunities to build these skills turned into my career.

My kids school take in alot of kids with send & they use an informal 'buddy' system and 'talking groups' to practice social skills amoung other things. Could you suggest to your kids teacher they try a buddy system? Maybe if kids are encouraged to extent an olive branch to Fred when somewhat structured and properly supervised Fred might be less likely to lash out at other times. And you never know your kid might develop skills and compassion from this that he can turn into a career also.

We have a Fred in my DD's reception class. He has hurt many of the children and bit my DD badly. She is terrified of him - it's a small class and there's no opportunity to avoid him. Teachers are aware and say they're handling it.

I do sympathise with his parents, but it's very difficult when your child is crying before drop-off because she's so scared of being hurt by him.

Non violent communication is another useful book for parents of explosive kids

We have just been through the same thing at DD's preschool class.

Last year in ante-preschool DD had been telling me that a particular girl, let's call her Janie, had been pushing her and hitting her and the other children and I mentioned it to the school and they said it was an issue but it was being dealt with.

Janie is included in playdates and parties and I have seen her behaviour first hand. She pulled some of DD's hair out at the roots at one party, and I saw her hitting another child at another party. I've seen DD and her friends shrinking back form her and trying to get away. Janie's mother completely ignores any bad behaviour.

In the move up to the preschool class DD's behaviour went completely awry and in the end I figured out it was because she was terrified of Janie and was fighting back - though not after being told several times by the school that I needed to work on DD's behaviour.

Eventually I asked what was going on with Janie and the school said she was being assessed. I plucked up the courage to talk to some other parents who were also being told by school that their DC's children were behaving badly and we have all had endless meetings with the school to say we cannot intervene in the classroom.

The school has now arranged 1-1 and psych help for Janie and also put the children into groups so that the ones Janie seemed to antagonise most do not spend as much time with her. Everything seems to have calmed down and DD is behaving much better.

At every point I felt sorry for Janie because it was clear that all was not well at home and I was at pains to tell the school that I wanted DD to be safe (implying that I don't want Janie to be excluded, merely helped.) I think this is the approach that most of the other parents have taken in their dealings with the school.

For DD it was a case of taking her complaints seriously - in nursery and preschool you expect a bit of rough and tumble and I didn't take her seriously enough until it went a bit crazy. I feel so bad about that.

My advice to OP is to keep talking to the school about the impact on your child and to keep track of any incidents so you can refer back to them. You can also see when things are getting better.

The best thing for a kid like Janie is to get the help and to stay in the class. How else can they learn to get on better with people?

"he's obviously been taught or allowed to think it is ok to hurt other kids"

Wrong. My child who did this certainly wasn't. You could have had a child who does this.

I feel for the kid if the parents don't help! I've fought like hell to get my DC ft 1:1. She absolutely needs it but it wasn't a cake walk. I also have another DC with Sen and I'm in the process of trying to get an ehcp before school to sort hours. None of it is easy or immediate. My middle DC has autism but her nursery did nothing. I was new to the system so didn't know until a few months we could apply for an ehcp and I did but my DC was kept out of school until funding came through. Day by day it's a nightmare. Funding requires lots of effort.

My eldest DC has a boy in her class and I saw in reception he had issues. He's in year 3 now and his mum constantly moans about him on Facebook, complains the council ring her when she's busy (I offered to help her write:email etc). But she's more concerned with her diet and exercise. Some kids just don't have the support and expect the school to deal with it. Those annoy me the most.

There needs to be compassion. He could be a little shit as was one of the kids in my middle DC's class and he threw chairs and all sorts, no Sen (I know his mum who is lovely but seems a lazy parent - think leaving him quite a way behind her on the walk home).

They say it takes a village to raise a child...

Yes so hard is right. Talk to the school about issues that are affecting your child.

Ds3 is fairly robust to being smacked in the face so could be supported with some tips/explanations from me at home. If he had been upset I would have seen the school (as I did when ds2 was not wanting to go to school due to verbal bullying - and I kept going back until sorted).

If your'child is upset then go in & talk about that - it's actually helpful to the school. In our case ds2 was far more upset by verbal bullying than ds3 was to being hit and punched and kicked. So although tongues were wagging from other parents about physical stuff ds3 wasn't upset and it didn't require a visit. The verbal stuff that no-one was talking about had a huge impact on ds2 & did need school meetings.

Keep it about your child & if your child is upset talk to the school.

Some 4yos ate still learning how to communicate and be around others. I'm sorry your child was hurt but YABU and those who say the kid should be home schooled or kicked out of school are BU. BTW homeschooling isn't an option for all parents and the kid has a right to a school education. This is the perfect time for teachers to help this kid learn that pushing and hitting isn't OK.

This is nothing like with older kids or in the workplace. The child needs help from the school and other professionals to see why he is doing this. It could be something he sees at home or could be SN.

I say this as a mum of a DD who has been bitten by a kid in class a few times because he hasn't learnt how to interact properly. The school is working with him and for the lastime month or so there have been no problems.

Oh and the school can only report to you when so.etching has happened to your child. You have no right to hear about others or what is going on with the child.

I had this situation arise in one of my DD's class, a little girl (remember these are four year olds) who often behaved inappropriately including sometimes hitting, or on one occasion my daughter returned home with a footprint on her chest. The School made it very clear they were aware of the problem, were watching her to protect the children and supporting them when hurt. It wasn't just physical either, she could be quite manipulative, on one occasion I arrived to pick up my child and she wasn't there, after some waiting and searching around we discovered the girl had told her she had been told to tell her I wasn't coming and she had to go to homework club with the big children.....

She came to our home on a return playdate and my DD practically ignored her (we had a talk about that after ) so I ended up spending time with her and she was a sweet girl as long as we were talking and doing things, more a lost soul than an angry one.

There was lots of gossip at the schoolgate about it, I remember the words "she just needs love" though I saw no evidence that her Mum though reserved and nervous of the alpha clique (me too) was anything but a loving parent trying her hardest.

Ultimately her mother confided in me that she had been diagnosed with ADHD and her real fears for her DD's future. They moved to the country because they felt she would be at less risk there. She has just graduated from university where she studied Drama.

That year helped my DD to understand that sometimes people are different for good reasons and a bit of understanding never goes amiss.

What do you want from school? It is impossible to watch any child all the time.

No, it isn't. If you know there is a child in the school who has a tendency to hit other children and injure them, you assign someone 1:1 to keep an eye on them because you have a duty to safeguard all the other children. Remember one of those pushes could cause extremely serious injury at any time.

It's always upsetting when your child is hurt but you need to understand that Fred may have some special needs which aren't yet being catered for in school because they're not diagnosed.

Certainly that's correct, but it doesn't absolve the school from taking other steps to keep other children safe in the meantime.

Theyve told you that fred is being assessed. That would usually only be said if he was being formally assessed, ie for SEN. Theres very little else they can do. Even after assessment and diagnosis, if thats the case, that doesnt mean that he will automatically get funding, and even then it would be unlikely to be a full time LSA.

I think so many people are deluded about what support there is out there for children with SEN, and yes of course the rest of the class suffer, as do the teachers, and the child with the disability, but if you had any idea how many SEN schools have been closed down and how much funding has been cut because of the current obsession with inclusion in mainstream, then youd probably find it shocking, because it IS.

im sorry your child has been hurt. It sounds to me like the school are on the case

Serendipidy, the Fred I described in my DC's class managed to injure another child and shortly after, the teacher, despite having 1:1 support. He's 5.

I didn't witness it, I don't know how it happened but it did. There is no one solution

Sadly it is naive. A permanent 1:1 for Fred represents a significant cost to a school (a full salary) and that can't be put in place without funding.

The school has to put that cost against the possibly consequences if, say, Fred pushes someone over, they break a bone, or they hit their head and are brain damaged or paralysed. The school has a safeguarding duty in relation to all their pupils. Certainly they should push hard for assessment and an EHC Plan, but they should also have in place adequate precautions in the meantime. So that may mean applying for extra emergency funding from the LA, it may mean using their own funds, it may mean identifying particular danger points (e.g. breaktimes) and ensuring there is someone with Fred then. What they absolutely cannot do is just shrug their shoulders and say "Nothing we can do till he's assessed."

OP, what you need to do is to get hold of the school's safeguarding policy and ask for a meeting when they spell out to you precisely what they are going to do to keep your child safe. You need to emphasise that you are not asking them to give you any personal information about Fred or any other children, just how they can guarantee so far as is reasonably possible that there will be no repetition of this incident.

NonFat, obviously there is no guaranteed solution. But doing nothing except wait for assessment clearly isn't any solution at all.

I wouldn't speak to the school about other people's children to be honest as its not really you're business, if your child is upset, then yes, speak to the school about that.

Dd was hit three times by one boy in reception, but thankfully she wasn't phased so I didn't need to speak to school, but there was lots of gossip in the playground about this boy hitting multiple children each week. I can understand them being upset if he'd hit their child, but he hadn't.

A bunch of grown adults calling a four year old boy all sorts of names, calling his mother even worse and plotting to have him excluded somehow. But the four year old boy adjusting to school life is the bully.

He had settled down a lot by the end of reception but all through to y6 this bit was scapegoated by mums in the playground. He was a lovely little boy and thankfully most of the other children didn't exclude him. Just the DC of the ones gossiping in playground.

One of their own DC went through a phase in y4 of hitting the girls (dd included) but funnily the parent didn't have the same attitude as she did about the four year old, and dismissed it as "boys being boys"

Should the school have even told you Fred is being assessed? Should information like that be confidential? If I divulged one child's medical information to other parents I'd lose my job.

Serendipity my ds had full time 1 to 1 in nursery and throughout his time in school even at playtimes and lunchtime which is incredibly rare in our LA. At four he managed to hit most children in his class at least once despite having a TA at his side constantly. It wasn't ds or his TA's fault they were still learning the triggers and ds was learning to cope in an environment he found distressing. An assigned TA isn't a miraculous cure there has to be strategies and adaptions in place and they rarely happen overnight.

1:1 won't stop people being hurt. And very few children are funded 1:1. Those that are usually have the funding because of very high support needs - not because they sometimes lash out (using a 1:1 as a sort of guard wouldn't be appropriate anyway).

I find it astonishing that so many people seem to think that there is nothing more that a school can do other than wait for assessment. Would you seriously take that view if it were your child who was seriously injured as a result? As I say, I don't claim that 1:1 support is the whole answer, but it may be a part of it. So can work on identifying what triggers violent incident, taking steps to distract the child, ensuring he is fully occupied so he isn't hitting other children, getting an educational psychologist or behaviour specialist in to advise, etc etc.

People are too willing to accept the "there's no money" excuse. As a governor, I know more than most about how cash-strapped schools are, but that's not a valid reason for failing to comply with fundamental safeguarding duties. It's not an excuse that will work if the school is subsequently found to be negligent and has to pay thousands of pounds in damages, or if Ofsted turns up and starts asking awkward questions about accident and serious incident records.

Serendipity: Nowhere near that simple. Schools do not have unlimited, allocated funds lying around and the precedent it would set for them to start funding 1:1 supervision for undiagnosed students would be inappropriate anyway, if that was even the best course of action. There is a crisis in school funding, with redundancies and inadequate provision all over the system. Hiring a 1:1 TA to stop Fred hitting other kids might mean taking one away from another child, sacking a teacher, not buying textbooks this year across the whole school etc. You can't just say they have to absorb this cost. Most schools can't.

It's not a case of thinking there is nothing else the school can do. It's a case of having no idea what the school is doing. No other parents know what support ds is getting in school, or why he is getting that - why should they?

The school are aware the OPs son was hurt, they have told her and have said they are aware of the situation and working with it. Unless him being hurt becomes a regular thing then the OP doesn't need to do anything else, or know anything else.

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Thanks

I said earlier schools can call in behaviour support, look at their environment and triggers etc and put in strategies. Some schools are a lot better at this than others. What pretty much no school can do is magic up a 1:1.

Trifleorbust, as I say, I know all about school finances. But they can't just decide to ignore a known danger in the interests of saving money, it is quite simply unlawful. What most schools do in that situation is to put in place interim protective measures and apply urgently to the council for funding for a longer term solution. It may well be that they can identify particular danger points, for instance, such as break times or when the children move between classes, or in particular lessons, so that support can be limited but is properly targeted.