AIBU to expect my 13yo not to steal from me?

[Icantthinkofanothername]

(Have name changed obv)
He takes EVERYTHING. As in, there's some cash on the side in the kitchen - change from fish and chips yesterday - and he took a pound coin (brought it to me after his sister told him I had noticed it was gone). DH & I have a drawer in the kitchen with 'our' snacks in - nuts, dried fruit, chocolates - and a couple of weeks ago he took the chocolate bar that was in there - 150g dairy milk that was for me for a week, and he scoffed the whole thing. He took an unopened pack of (10) caramel rocky bars last weekend, ate the lot - wrappers all under his pillow. I got two tubs of roses (am I showing my age if I say I preferred the tins) because they were on a good offer at tesco, put them away in the cupboard for christmas time (it takes 2 tubs to fill up the 3 kids advent calendars). Spotted only one was there the next day, asked DH if he'd put it somewhere else, but no. Got 13yo son into kitchen, asked if he'd taken it, and he admitted it. Brought leftovers downstairs, and there was literally ten chocolates left. He'd eaten the rest (in less than a day).
We've always been really clear that we need them to tell the truth, as otherwise there is a consequence for what they did (eg taking chocs) and another for lying about it.
I know 13yo's have massive hormonal surges and impulse control issues and struggling to work themselves out, but this is just getting ridiculous. His weight and teeth are fine, he walks to and from school five days a week which is just over 2.5 miles each day, eats maybe 3 or 4 slices of toast for breakfast, then a bacon roll when he gets to school, school hot dinner, 2 apples when he gets home, and tea might be pasta, or soup with bread, or veg stew or something like that, along with another piece of fruit. I get that he's growing like a weed but can always have fruit or toast for a snack if he's hungry, so I can't see it's just hunger, but have pretty much run out of patience! It's not even like it's only food he takes - long story but we had a lot of cash in the house a few weeks ago and know that he took at least £100.
Are all teens like this and I need to get my head round it? I hate having to think twice about what I should do with a handful of change because I worry that if I leave it somewhere he might see it then he'll take it! Do your teens do this? What should I do???

Should have just told him to get the milk. Does he do any chores at all?

No, I think it is reasonable to ask him to go to the shop for you. You didn't need to offer any money. But offering 50p is odd. He's 13 not 5. I agree with auser above I'm afraid.

I'm going to go back to the money from my experience as a child.

We didn't get pocket money. However dp were generally very generous if we wanted something reasonable. We didn't get sweets (ever) but if I said (eg) I needed a file for school they would get the most expensive Disney file with flashing lights if I fancied that! My friends sometimes envied me. This suited dsis and dbro.
However I liked to go out with my friends. We'd spend all day shopping. Well, they would. I'd be given £2 for lunch and maybe 50p to get something for me.
Or maybe I'd say I needed to get a file so they'd give me £5 for the file, and £2 for lunch...
But personally I'd have rather had £3 to spend which was mine. So I could make the choice, as my friends did, between the nice £3 file and nothing else, or the £1.50 file and the strawberry smelling rubber.
I didn't have financial freedom to do that. They even bought all the presents "from" us.
I think this is what you're missing with your ds.

So I started saving so I could have a little freedom. If granny asked if I wanted a cake when out, I'd ask if I could have the money as I was saving and things like that. Granny was happy to do that.
I learnt to save and choose what I spent on. Very good lesson in budgeting. I spent a lot of it on presents for Christmas-I'd work out exactly how much I had to spend on each person.

Dsis and dbro found it much harder when they sorted their own finances-dbro could never work out that if he'd brought that designer top he couldn't afford any trousers to go with it-so he'd go cap in hand back to dm.

Going back to the sweets. I said we never had sweets. Not quite true. Dm once bought what she thought was a nice tin, and found inside it some jellybeans. Dsis didn't want them and dbro was allergic to them so she offered them to me. To her amazement I took them into school and shared them. It was wonderful. For once I was the child who had some sweets to share; and I loved it much more than wolfing them myself.

Now I don't know what area you're in, but £2 pocketmoney isn't much at all here.
We gave them 10p a year plus 20p for ages. When dd1 got to about 10yo we hit a slight snag. Children talk about how much they get don't they? Dd2's friends (3-4 years younger) were typically getting over twice what dd1 got. You'd hear them say "Are you sure you don't get more?" in genuine surprise.
So after some discussion we changed to an allowance. They didn't get much more actual pocket money, but we added a clothing allowance and other things we expected them to get, and we gave it by the month. So it then sounded a huge amount to those discussing how much it was-and most dc at that age don't bother working out how much it is per week. So when they're saying "I get £3 a week pocket money" and dd1 could then say "I get £15 a month allowance plus £15 clothing allowance" it wasn't actually a lot more pocket money but it sounded much better.

Recognising he's 13yo is important. My middle is 12yo and it is important at that age to show that you think they're getting grown up. But I would say my 9yo has more freedom than that. He can go and get food when he's hungry, but you know, he doesn't misuse it because he's grown up being able to and when he was younger I taught him to make sensible decisions-he's munching a carrot at present. If you treat them their age they'll often rise to it. Unfortunately if you treat them as younger they'll often sink it it too.

Sorry, I know it's a cardinal mumsnet sin but haven't rtft. I went through a phase of this and have always felt deeply ashamed. When I've thought back over it, there are two important elements that seem to chime with what you've said about your son.

Firstly, as other posters have observed, I felt deprived in comparison to peers at school - 3 sibs and parents were pretty tight on money. No pocket money, had to ask and I hated asking for anything that I actually wanted or needed. Of course school was in a posh area with lots of rich school kids, so not having money for the coke machine or the sweet shop felt very hard. I felt envious of the other kids (who didn't notice or give a shit) and deprived me angry that my mum didn't notice or think about me in this situation - or belittled my feelings if I tried to verbalise them.

Secondly, looking back, what I wanted and needed was more time and attention from my mum and I felt my mum was too over stretched and over stressed looking after all of us and working. I was really ne'er a lot of pressure (from myself but from my mum) to be good and to achieve academically. Which I did in spades but never was praised for - just criticised if my marks weren't up to scratch. I really could have done with a mum that sat down, saw me, noticed me hover on the edge of an eating disorder, noticed I was depressed, just spent time with me and gave me a sense of valuing me for me, rather than for an older child that could look after younger kids, or get good grades, or cause her less stress than my older sib etc.

This second bit of my experience is chiming with what you've said about your family and your son - you have a child with SN in a wheelchair, on oxygen, which must be a child that takes priority in terms of their needs and your time and attention. If your DS has been bullied and still is struggling emotionally, my guess would be his anger and the stealing are to get at your attention and really at positive attention and love. Notice me.

Actions have consequences and punishments are a natural part of this - if he steals in later life, he will face criminal consequences etc. However, from my experience (and I was never caught or punished, just struggled through), I've never stolen aside from this and I hold down a very respectable, professional job.

But alongside holding the boundary of punishing stealing, he needs to get a sense of getting the 'good stuff' directly from you instead of resorting to stealing it. So 1:1 time wi you and his dad where he is able to be listened to and have some of the parenting he sees his sib getting.

He will love that at his age! Grunt swear go away mum. If my mum had offered me this, I would have had no idea how to handle it at all, but there will always be a bit of me that is 12 and desperate for my mum to notice how bad I was feeling and to magically make me feel better. Plus pocket money so I didn't feel such a loser at school.

Sorry, that was long but I hope it helps.

Sorry typos, no idea where ne'er came from - under

Thank you, Truly, was starting to regret ever posting! Those seem like good ideas and it's clear we need to try something new.
He does have regular chores - he and his sister take turns washing/drying up after a meal each day, along with (what I consider to be) usual stuff like putting away their washing; clearing/setting the table; brushing the dogs teeth; keeping their bedrooms to a reasonable-ish standard of tidiness.
InSpace I'm confused I'm afraid - why is offering 50p odd? I was simply trying to make the idea of popping out for me a bit more appealing, and give him the chance to get cash (yes, a very small amount, but still cash) for doing something easy that made my life easier - my hope was that he'd realise it was easy enough to do these minor things and get money, rather than nabbing money he spots around and then feeling guilty/concerned he might get caught and told off.
I like the allowance idea - a workable way of giving him a measure of control and responsibility.

50p is so little. It's not even enough for a packet of smarties.

I really don't mean to upset you.

But there's a reason why on all the single parent threads on here, when an NRP suggests just buying all the stuff the RP might need it gets shot down in flames.

Your son is growing up. He needs to have more autonomy than you are giving him. He needs to be allowed to fit in. So tv. X box. Tablet. Re making life choices for your family that by their very nature are making his life difficult.

If he has no tv and no tablet in his room, no laptop - he can't do much else but go and sit on his own and read if he wants to be away from the family (which is normal for 13s)

*you're

Not re.

Phone.

Good points LeaningTower - he's always had separate away from other sibs with his dad or me, often choosing to play Uno or other card games - stuff that can't be done 'as a family' because of needs of his older sibling. Maybe that needs to become a more defined thing, protected time that is his, to go where he wants and have full attention of who he's with - maybe it's become a habit instead of him realising it's his, you know?
Also re recognition and praise for academic stuff, I had a similar experience to you growing up - when I told my mother my gcse results (11a*, 3a and a b) her blank faced immediate response was 'what did you get a b in? Was it physics? I told you you needed to revise physics more'. Because of that we tend to focus more on behaviour type stuff in school reports etc, encouraging him to tell extended family so he could see this as a source of pride for him, and see that we are proud of him and the person that he is (which we also tell him explicitly).
Good to hear it's something that you left behind as you matured - hopefully it will only be a short term thing for him too.

Do you realise how odd and old fashioned it is at 13 to be playing uno or other card games with parents?

Do you realise how odd and old fashioned it is at 13 to be playing uno or other card games with parents?
Is it? I have always played games with my sons. Card games are a favourite. They are 17 & 18 years old! We don't get huge amounts of time together but it's a great activity when we do.
It's not odd, it's fantastic. Too many parents disconnect with their teenagers. We chat over cards in a way that would never happen otherwise.

But this young man has no friends and is socially isolated. The answer to that isn't to be playing old fashioned card games with a parent. The answer is to find something like an online game that he can interact with others albeit at a distance and discuss with peers or a popular TV programme - popular with teen boys, not adults - to watch so that he can join in the chat on a school day or at scouts.

I agree, I think it's nice that he still wants to play card games with you. And I don't think not having a TV in his room is the end of the world, my teen doesn't. Yes maybe he needs to be allowed to grow up a bit but that doesn't mean he has to change completely - finding a balance between 'cool' enough for their mates but still doing family stuff is tricky but it can, and imo should, be done.

Mine don't have and never did have a tv in a bedroom. We didn't for a long time have a separate living room either. What they did have were tablets and eventually laptops and xbox to game on and minecraft and talk shite with their friends. And I allowed them in their bedrooms and knew they would google inappropriate things and giggle because the words were dirty.

That's what teens do.

I think 50p is fine for going to the shop, and similar for doing dishes etc.
As for spending money and talking about how much money they receive, none of my dd friends do this, they aren't bothered about what others have, that's a bit trying to be mc and obvious.
They go out and don't waste money on tat or coffee or mcDonalds, they'd rather save for something they want.

Yes, he knew they were the chocolates to go in his and his siblings advent calendars - when he saw me unpack them from the shopping he asked if they were for that and if I was going to put them in the loft with the calendars.

Oh, then I can really see why you are so concerned.

Of course it's not about you starving him, but in a way it would be easier if it was just a misunderstanding about how many calories he needs! This sounds like a more complicated situation though.

I asked if he would go for me - 90 seconds there, 90 seconds back, and he'd 'earn' 50p for doing that. I don't think that is unreasonable actually - helping me out in this way a few times a week and it would soon add up.

What with the reading and hiding away your DS might be a bit demand-avoidant. There are strategies for dealing with that. What I do with my DS is something a bit like this "Look, I really need some milk. I know it's a big ask but I really need you to go to the shop and get some, otherwise there will be no milk until I get to the shop tomorrow. No, I can't ask your sister, I can't go into the reasons but I really do need you to do it. And I would so appreciate it. You don't need to decide right now, I'll come back in five minutes and ask again." (The five minutes thinking time is critical for demand avoidant kids ) Then go and ask again, with much less drama "OK, can you get the milk?" No fuss if he says no - "OK we'll manage without til tomorrow" and warm praise if he says "yes" - oh you are a star, that really makes things easier for me etc. And if I really couldn't leave everyone without milk til tomorrow then I would enact the same scene over something less important(!)

One other thought - does the hospital that (presumably) supports your older son offer any family counselling? It might not have to be a problem that's directly connected to your older son, they might also offer support for other problems in the immediate family.

Do you realise how odd and old fashioned it is at 13 to be playing uno or other card games with parents?

It's normal round here and anyway who cares about odd and old fashioned? If you want really old-fashioned I read aloud to my DS until he was well into his teens because we both enjoyed it. And he still enjoys boardgames, many of our friends are boardgame geeks and their kids join in so there's nothing weird about that. It doesn't have to be either-or - DS had online gaming and family stuff.

As all that he does other than read on his own in his room and play with lego it''s odd.

The op son doesn't do online gaming. I've asked a time or two and she has ignored that at least, so Im assuming not.

I meant that offering 50p is odd because it is so little. He's a teenager.....you need to either just ask him to go, with no incentive, or offer a reasonable amount like £2. My kids don't have tv in rooms either, but they do have a shared PlayStation. You have been given a lot of advice as to what might be the problem but you don't seem very keen on accepting any of it.

I don't think it's old fashion to be playing games as a family at 13. DD has a phone, tv, xbox etc. but we still sit down and play family games.

I do want to echo what a lot of others have said about the autonomy to spend money as he chooses. I was your ds at that age. It may seem ridiculous, it does to dh who it never bothered being different, but my mother never got how important it can be to teenagers to feel they fit in and having the right stuff. It feels like the be all and end all to them. I remember a particular pair of jeans my mum bought me as a child. They were from M&S so not cheap at the time but she chose them...I hated them with a passion. They were frumpy for an adult even by 80's standards. I always joke to my mum that at primary school I was picked on for being too posh by other kids and when I started secondary she decided I hadn't had my head kicked in enough she sent me to a private school where I wasn't posh enough.
It's funny and easy to laugh at now but I was the kid with 50p and I did steal money from my parents so I could fit in. So I could do the sort of thing a pp did and take in sweets to share.

When I had all this in mind I made sure that when dd started secondary she got money every week. She walks home with friends passed the local shops and I didn't want her to feel like she was the only one that couldn't pop into the shops and buy some sweets or a random bit of crap. Her and her friends buy each other little bits and pieces like off keyring and stuff and that is such an important part of growing up. Some weeks she doesn't spend any money some she spends it all. She has also started saving in a jar and has a fair bit put away now. She has gone from spending it as soon as she gets it so budgeting and saving.

We play games but it is PART of what we do, kids socialise with others and play games or watch movies with me.

But this young man doesn't appear to have friends to hang out with and the way to sort that isn't by playing uno with his father.

This boy doesn't appear to have a phone (I've asked, not been answered) and he doesn't seem to have an up to date console - a wii is very old tech now, mine have an x-box between them, DS is older has bought his own PS4. They have laptops each and a tablet (one ipad one android)

This young man doesn't seem to have that. I understand money worries but he's not allowed it, or its taken off him.

He's 13. Not 9 and if he isn't allowed to grow up soon and do age appropriate things he is going to get the arse ripped clean out of him, if he's not already.

Hang on AUser, I'll do these one at a time.
Yes, he has a phone, but a very basic one as he loses them constantly and I can't afford to go and buy him ANOTHER nice one every month or two. It's linked to the bank so it can't run out of credit, he uses it to text friends and let us know if he's going to an afterschool club or something we don't know about. We also text him if (for example) no one will be home when he gets in to remind him to let the dog out or tell him approx when we'll be back (if we're unexpectedly at hospital or similar).
We have a wii, which I know is old tech. DH has bought an Xbox which will be set up at Xmas - the kids don't know about it yet.
We don't have a pc in the house (partly because no room, partly because we had a run of problems with them years back and switched allegiance to a laptop). We now have a laptop which anyone uses as and when they want - homework, playing games etc. He and his younger sibling have an android tablet each, which they use (for a reasonable limited period each day) for whatever they want. He doesn't like Facebook (at least that's what he says) but has other social media apps such as instagram, games like mine craft - does that count as online gaming?

How long is he allowed to use his tablet for per day? If it's only an hour, say, then again I think that is far too restrictive for a 13 year old. He's getting to the age where he needs to be given more freedom and not treated like a five year old.