would you leave your partner if they didn't see your DSC?

[mendimoo]

DP has a ten year old DD from his previous marriage. I have DS (7) and we have (almost) 2 year old DD together. We met when I was pregnant with DS and we had DSD 80% of the time, with me caring for DSD while he worked very frequently. DPs ex stopped contact for a year when DSD was 6. DSD was amazing when contact was reinstated and we all got along fabulously again. Then when she was 8 her mum stopped contact again and this time DP went to court and had it reinstated. Again, DSD was very happy to be seeing us again. Her mum has openly admitted she's jealous when DSD goes back talking about being happy here and the contact stoppage was for very minor reasons - like not being able to watch DSD in her Christmas concert because DP was in hospital.

Fifteen months ago, DPs ex stopped contact again. She was angry because her and DSD had fallen out and DSD said she preferred it here. DPs ex said if he sought contact via court she'd fabricate allegations against him. DP felt dejected and resigned himself to having no power and not seeing DSD until she was old enough to be able to manage it herself.

Yesterday, DP received a message saying: "Hello daddy, it's DSD. I'd really like to see you, can you come and pick me up soon?" We don't know if it's really from DSD or his ex but I think either way it's a way of getting to see DSD again and that he should jump at the chance. He, however, has no intention of replying and says it's just his ex playing games. I keep imagining poor DSD sitting waiting for a reply, wondering why we don't want to see her etc and feel heartbroken for her. Aibu to think I can't be with someone that wouldn't do everything in their power to see their child? I can't believe he'd actually wait another 4/5 years rather than have a stressful time now.

but at least they know that the DCs childhood was less crap than it otherwise would have been

If someone said 'give me your kids or I'll make trouble for them' you wouldn't just go 'okay, here you go'. It seems to be fathers who find it easier to back off. I don't think for one minute it's about concern for the child. If they were happy to cause themselves that much hurt they'd be all out for custody.

And you keep making it sound like Kramer vs Kramer. Cafcass are very careful to make any necessary input via a play session. It's not a panel of adults looming over a small lone child in a cavernous court room.

If it makes it easier for you to see it that to accept a father forgoing his relationship with his kids then so be it.

head have you read my posts?

My DH was where the OPsDP was, and he did fight. I'm not trying to justify or make it easier to accept anything - my DH did exactly what you are endorsing.

It's exactly because I have that experience that I know what is involved.

Cafcass are very careful to make any necessary input via a play session. It's not a panel of adults looming over a small lone child in a cavernous court room.

Wouldn't it be lovely if that were always the case? Of course, that's the ideal, and sometimes they do achieve it - but in other cases, not so much. My DHsDS used to dread being told CAFCASS were coming to talk to him at school again - he'd be pulled out of class, sat in the HT office, or the SEN intervention room - quite the talk of the school, he was.
And his sisters interview with CAFCASS, which took place in a grotty temporary office space above a Chinese takeaway in a nearby town resulted in her sobbing all the way home. She was nearly a teen, and was deemed capable of being interviewed without a parent or advocate present. She subsequently refused to attend any others.
Not to mention the army of other professionals who get involved. Conversations between the DC and the school Safeguarding Leads. Out of hours social work visits. Welfare checks by the police. GP visits, A&E examinations.

It's not just a play therapy session, that the DC is unaware of, by any means. Whole families are disrupted and dragged into the sordid drama that is created when two parents can't agree on contact with the child.

If someone said 'give me your kids or I'll make trouble for them' you wouldn't just go 'okay, here you go'. It seems to be fathers who find it easier to back off
Of course it's fair to question the commitment of a Dad who at the first sign of the DCs mum blocking contact says "it's too much hassle". But after years of court hearings, repeated enforcement, ignored court orders and most importantly, untold damage to the DCs which cannot be undone, then the issue is far less black and white.
At different times, both my DHs DCs have begged him not to turn up for court ordered contact, not to insist they he sees them, not to "piss off their mum by trying to be a good dad". Disregarding the impact of the action on the DCs, and ignoring their distress and damage, isn't the easy option.

. If they were happy to cause themselves that much hurt they'd be all out for custody.
You clearly have very little respect or time for stepparents or non-resident parents. You also don't seem to have an accurate view of the way in which family courts work. If they worked the way you seem to think they do, then your black and white thinking may have some merit.

I hope that you are willing to accept the experiences of those of us who have been there, and that you never find yourself living through this yourself.

headinhands

You have said several times that you cannot imagine ever giving up fighting to see your children, as a female it is unlikely that you would ever be in a situation like those described.

Your PoV reminds me of those that say "I would sit outside the house until I was allowed to see my children", when in fact what would happen is that you would sit outside the house until the police where called and you where arrested for harassment.

It is unfortunate that so many people are unable to see anything other than one side of of this.

Your PoV reminds me of those that say "I would sit outside the house until I was allowed to see my children",

I would follow all avenues I could. Wouldn't you if for whatever reason you were finding it hard to have contact with your children? Seems that dsc are more easily sacrificed. They shouldn't be. We've yet to hear directly from a single bio parent who has argued for backing out of a struggle for access. It's partners of those parents so far. Upshot is the bio parent isn't posting, and if they cared enough to post it would be asking for advice.

as a female it is unlikely that you would ever be in a situation like those described.

Which means nothing. A parent is a parent regardless of gender. I'm guessing such a bias underpins this issue and that it's currently more acceptable for a male parent to disappear off the scene when the RP is manipulative/shows they are poorly equipped for child rearing. It needs to change. A spiteful parent needs challenging. There is no excuse for knowingly leaving your child in the care of a parent who has demonstrated such a level of immaturity, male or female.

There is no excuse for knowingly leaving your child in the care of a parent who has demonstrated such a level of immaturity, male or female.

Other than those pesky court orders, of course.

You really won't accept that family court doesn't operate in the way you believe it should, will you?

I used to be that naive. Posters like I am now used to try and explain it to me. I didn't believe them. I hope you remain ignorant because it means you will never face such a situation.

Oh, and before you make sweeping generalisations about bio-parents, you probably should know that I have refused to fight my DDs dad in court, despite the low level emotional abuse she has experienced, because the impact of court action on her would be far worse. I agreed to the 50:50 arrangement he insisted on despite my reservations. So don't be so quick to condemn me as just a wicked stepmum.

I supported dh in his attempt to become the rp to his children.

His solicitor said he had no chance as unless he could prove she was unfit, as in physically or sexually abusive, or a substance abuser (drugs, alcoholic), that made her a danger to the child, there was no way a court would remove them from a mother's care.

All it would do was bankrupt dh, who then wouldn't be awarded care if he couldn't support them, and subject the children to months of dr's, invasive tests, psychologists and interviews.

As "all" she was doing was refusing access and emotionally manipulating the children against their dad until they no longer wanted to see him, that wasn't grounds for removing her as rp.

We did back off and did start to get access when she realised it meant she needn't worry about childcare or babysitting. But now they are older they decide when they come to see us, and if she deems they are staying too much the kids get emotional phone calls about how much she loves them, and she misses them, and they should come home. They only stay w/e btw due to school, so she's never away from them for more than 2 nights.

OP it doesn't matter who the text was from. Your DP needs to respond. DSD will no doubt be in turmoil and there will never be an easy or simple way forward for her, however by not responding neither you or your DP will get an answer. If you are upset, confused and uncertain then DSD's feelings will be the same but magnified x1000.
You need to attempt mediation now before you go to court so a straightforward proposal, say eow, with pick up and drop off from school is the easiest way forward and can't be easily be interfered with.
My ex blows hot and cold over contact. I wonder what his current DP thinks about what he is up to and why she as a mother doesn't tell him to pull his socks up and get on with being a consistent and reliable parent. It's never going to be entirely smooth, so rolling with the punches is part of the job as it is in any family dynamic. She needs to know that he is there so he needs to grow a pair again and find out what's going on.

I expect it does bother him, a hell of a lot more than he is letting on. Unfortunately he is probably doing it because every time he builds a good relationship with his dd, it gets taken and it probably hurts him every time and he sees this as a way to stop that.

I do think he should reply. His poor daughter. His ex is a massive twat and I really hate women who do this. I've known of so many who stop the dad's seeing them or feed all sorts of crap to make the children hate the dad.

I don't think you should leave him though.

Could you message her? Get the number from his phone and send her a message yourself? Your DSD is old enough that if she wants to arrange to see her dad, there is fuck all his twatty ex can do about it.

headinhands

"Which means nothing. A parent is a parent regardless of gender."

Yes a parent is a parent, but the fact is your gender has formed your opinion on this.

"I'm guessing such a bias underpins this issue and that it's currently more acceptable for a male parent to disappear off the scene"

The bias is what you read in to the post, as is often posted on here women are more often to be the RP than the man, not bias just a fact (for whatever reason)

I have refused to fight my DDs dad in court,

What if he said he wanted full custody, that he wouldn't let you have access and that if you didn't comply he would make life difficult for you and the child. You would not yield. You would keep going. You would not relinquish your relationship. But that's what you're condoning in some parents. Something you would never do to your own bio child. But something it seems you'd tolerate a partner doing to their dc.

You would not yield. You would keep going. You would not relinquish your relationship. But that's what you're condoning in some parents. Something you would never do to your own bio child. But something it seems you'd tolerate a partner doing to their dc.

How dare you tell me what I would, or would not do.

As it happens, there was a period when my ex refused to allow me contact with DD. I could have gone storming into court and secured her return (as a mother, I knew that the courts and even police would act in my favour) but I didn't. I weighed up the damage that was being done to her by not seeing me against the damage that would be done if I waded in the way you propose. So yes, I yielded. I (temporarily) relinquished my relationship with her in order to protect her from further harm. At the expense of my relationship with my own parents, who believed as you do, that I failed my DD and was an undeserving mother.

Just so you know, my DD does not even remember that period of her life clearly - which is all the proof that I need that I did the right thing, because I am certain that she would have remembered the drama had a immediately sought court action, or turned up and demanded ex return her to me. By choosing not to "fight", I protected her.

But, there is no point in trying to reason with you. Your own experience has created your paradigm in which all stepparents have the goal of being free of their NR stepchildren, and all NRP are weak and willing to be manipulated by them in order to achieve it.

I can't stop you judging the OP and her DP. It says more about you than it does about the OP.

I agree with Time, Boney et al.

This contempt for a parent who has been through hell is stupid.

I can't stop you judging the OP and her DP. It says more about you than it does about the OP.

The op was judging her dp, I agreed that I would too, but that I would have judged him sooner.

against the damage that would be done if I waded in

What damage would that have been?

How dare you tell me what I would, or would not do.

I can only say what my feelings are. I can't apologise for seeing things differently and I won't apologise for the things I feel strongly about. I am genuinely interested in how parents justify it but unfortunately it still doesn't make sense to me.

What damage would that have been?

If you are asking that, even after everyone who has actually experienced it has shared the trauma, distress and damage they have seen done to DCs by parents in conflict, then you're not "genuinely interested" at all. You're a GF.

I can only say what my feelings are.
You didn't say how you felt - you told me how I would behave if I was faced with a situation you invented. And projected your own prejudices on to me. Not the action of someone who is "genuinely interested".

i hope your illusions are never shattered. I hope your DCs are never exposed to the family court process. Because despite what you may believe, it is nasty, distressing and leaves permanent scars. I fear you will only believe those of us who have told you this once you experience it for yourself, though.

distress and damage they have seen done to DCs by parents in conflict,

So far you've alluded but not been specific on what your ex actually did to your child when you sought access.

I still have little respect for parents who don't fight for access to a child, especially when they know the RP can and would be abusive.

Fairly sure current child safeguarding protocols don't make room for cow-towing to spiteful parents.

headinhands

We are not necessarily talking about abusive parents and even if we were it can be a very difficult thing to prove.

we are talking about spiteful parents, those that go out when the NRP arrives for their court appointed time, or refuse to let children take phonecalls and ultimately turn the child against the NRP (I have seen this happen). This is parent alienation but it is very difficult to prove.

And as I said up thread just because the RP is abusive to the NRP it doesn't mean that they are abusive to the child or colleagues etc, if it were that simple would MN have the threads about abusive partners that everybody else loves.

I still have little respect for parents who don't fight for access to a child,

You also have little respect for those that have fought for their children and lost.

As for distress and damage, it depends on the child, anything from become anxious to lashing out. Behavioural changes can crop up in many ways, including becoming withdrawn (All these RP blames on the NRP) and I have seen children not wanting to go home to the NRP because they know how much it 'upsets' the RP.

Those that come in on a Monday morning in tears because they have had a good weekend at the NRP and will not be able to share the information with the RP.

And although this could come under safeguarding it is very hard to prove that it is not just the child still worrying about parents that have separated.

And even if/when it goes to court there is nothing to stop the RP stopping contact when they like because the courts refuse to sanction the parent that is causing the issues. AND then it all starts again .

Fairly sure current child safeguarding protocols don't make room for cow-towing to spiteful parents.

Even though you've read accounts from people on this thread who have been subject to false allegations, resulting in intrusive and invasive investigations about the DCs?

Even though people have shared their accounts of out of hours social work visits, DCs in the family being woken, unnecessary medical and psychological examinations being carried out out?

Even though posters on this thread have explained the impact that false allegations will have on their life, even if they are subsequently disproven in the confidentiality of family court?

And despite all of those things being reported to Court, posters are saying that the abusive parent retained retains the role of primary carer and continues to withhold contact.

You may think courts should act to address those issues, but many of us who have been there know that they don't.

Despite all those things, you can sit in judgement without even considering how hard it must be for a parent who faces the choice between causing hurt to their child, or losing contact with their child. There is no right answer - because whatever happens, the DCs is hurt. Hurt by being dragged into a messy and prolonged court battle, or hurt by missing out of having a loving father in their life.

I wish you'd come and sit on the bench in my local court, because based on what you've posted, you'd imprison my DHs ex, and have her dragged away from her sobbing children.

Is that really the solution? To rob DCs of the mother they love, and who provides them with what they needs, in order to secure contact with their father? Is it really better to take the DCs away from their primary carer?

Children whose parents are in chronic conflict are at their most emotionally stable when their parents are not communicating with each other. It's well proven - school work improves. Stress levels drop. They are physically healthier. Courts consider that, and so do many parents before they embark upon a fight with their ex.

I should stop responding, because in fairly sure you'd goading, rather than actually thinking about what you post.

Your sure as hell not reading posts, because you asked me what my ex did to my DD when I tried to secure access after I'd told you that I didn't fight him . I was fortunate, that gender bias you claim doesn't exist placed significant social pressure on him to reverse his decision. It's not the done thing for a man to keep his DC away from their mother, whereas society is a lot more forgiving of mothers who do that (and generally suspicious of dads who it is done to).

But, I'm on bedrest, so can sit and debate with you for hours if you like

Time

TBF, I'm not such that Head is goady, but she hasn't said anything that isn't a repeat for an age.

Personally I would fight for my dc until my dying day. I think far too often men, and let's face it it is generally men, are all too full of excuses about why they gave up. Often new partners enable this.

Unless they live in another country or there are health/disability issues then I don't buy any excuse for a NRP not pulling their weight parenting.

Personally I would fight for my dc until my dying day.

I hope you never face a situation in which this becomes a reality.

Many DCs experience the grief of losing an estranged father on top of the significant damage done by years of fighting between their parents.

Careforadrink
Personally I would fight for my dc until my dying day.

Lets hope that you never have to.

I couldn't lay my head down on my pillow at night without thinking 'what have I done about not being able to see my dc today' wether it be mobilising awareness of the wider issue/writing to MP's etc. Later, if necessary I would be able to show my dc a record of that I was doing and also copies of letters/gifts sent. I would be able to show them that I didn't give up. That I couldn't.