would you leave your partner if they didn't see your DSC?

[mendimoo]

DP has a ten year old DD from his previous marriage. I have DS (7) and we have (almost) 2 year old DD together. We met when I was pregnant with DS and we had DSD 80% of the time, with me caring for DSD while he worked very frequently. DPs ex stopped contact for a year when DSD was 6. DSD was amazing when contact was reinstated and we all got along fabulously again. Then when she was 8 her mum stopped contact again and this time DP went to court and had it reinstated. Again, DSD was very happy to be seeing us again. Her mum has openly admitted she's jealous when DSD goes back talking about being happy here and the contact stoppage was for very minor reasons - like not being able to watch DSD in her Christmas concert because DP was in hospital.

Fifteen months ago, DPs ex stopped contact again. She was angry because her and DSD had fallen out and DSD said she preferred it here. DPs ex said if he sought contact via court she'd fabricate allegations against him. DP felt dejected and resigned himself to having no power and not seeing DSD until she was old enough to be able to manage it herself.

Yesterday, DP received a message saying: "Hello daddy, it's DSD. I'd really like to see you, can you come and pick me up soon?" We don't know if it's really from DSD or his ex but I think either way it's a way of getting to see DSD again and that he should jump at the chance. He, however, has no intention of replying and says it's just his ex playing games. I keep imagining poor DSD sitting waiting for a reply, wondering why we don't want to see her etc and feel heartbroken for her. Aibu to think I can't be with someone that wouldn't do everything in their power to see their child? I can't believe he'd actually wait another 4/5 years rather than have a stressful time now.

Btw I fought an ongoing legal battle for 7 yrs, to keep a close family member safe and with us, I also held down an extremely demanding full time job and family life. Sooo, I know how horrendous it can be. And I get it, that not everyone can cope with court case after court case. But what's the alternative? To give up? To walk away?

The problem with walking away is that the parent isn't just walking away from a vindictive and abusive battle with an ex, they are also walking away from their child.

And that's not a decision I can understand.

It's a horrible situation though, I absolutely agree.

It wouldn't bother me so no I wouldn't leave.

I cannot imagine any situation in which I would stop fighting for my child. No situation in which I'd be justified in severing my bond with my child.

Even when it was evident that continuing to fight was damaging the DC? When every time you tried to see them, they were subject to emotional and physical abuse? When items you gave them or sent them were destroyed in front of their eyes?

I know that it's very hard to understand the conflict that a parent in that situation faces. But try to imagine the dilemma. A father who knows that their DC wants to see him. But also knows that if he enforces a court order his child will be harmed by their primary carer. Would you be so quick to fight at all costs?

Even when it was evident that continuing to fight was damaging the DC? When every time you tried to see them, they were subject to emotional and physical abuse? When items you gave them or sent them were destroyed in front of their eyes?

Again, keep evidence, record details. What's the alternative: leave them be with an adult that clearly doesn't have the emotional wherewithal to rear a child? What makes you think the outcome of leaving a child in the care of such an obviously ill equipped adult is preferable to the relatively short term hassle of Cafcas? What makes you think such a poor parental role model will revert to even adequate once the other parent backs off? If they're that toxic in one situation what reason would we have so assume that they're capable of supporting a child in all the other areas of their development?

give me some scenarios where you would you be prepared to lose seeing your children?

If continuing to see her would cause her more pain and unhappiness than not. If my involvement in her life caused her more damage than remaining away.

It's never possible to "know" for sure, though, is it? Whether the damage being done by prolonging the fight is less than the damage that would be done by giving up?

What makes you think such a poor parental role model will revert to even adequate once the other parent backs off?

It's well documented that DCs who are experiencing parental alienation have a more stable home life when the target parent is not in their life. Hostile parents are often models of ideal parenting as long as the target parent stays away.

My DHs experience is exactly that - his DCs were only subject to abuse and assaults when he refused to accept her demands. His ex has a professional job, which involves DCs. She is not a bad mother, unless he is involved in his DCs lives in a way she doesn't accept.

What purpose does the evidence serve? Hostile parents often admit they abuse their DCs - attributing their actions to a loss of control because of their dislike/upset towards the other parent. You don't think that courts will change residency, against the wishes of the DC, in those cases, do you ?

headinhands

What makes you think that this sort of issue is short term?

Exactly, boney - in one case I'm aware of, which has been covered by the media, there had been ongoing court action between parents for all 14 years of the DCs life. Hardly conducive to a 'normal' childhood.

It's well documented that DCs who are experiencing parental alienation have a more stable home life when the target parent is not in their life.

So the answer is to relinquish your relationship? Not reply to a text potentially from your child? I'm no genius but I would require thorough explanation for non-contact with a nrp during my childhood. Evidence of letters sent/legal advice etc and in an ongoing fashion if they wanted me to think i meant as much to them as my dc mean to me. OP's DH isn't fighting.

headinhands

So the answer is to relinquish your relationship?

What relationship are you likely to have after years not seeing your child?
You will no doubt have to have supervised or low contact building up to a reasonable amount which will be pulled at the whim of the RP.

How is that going to affect the child's mental health? What is the child being told every time the visits stop?

I would require thorough explanation for non-contact with a nrp during my childhood. Evidence of letters sent/legal advice etc and in an ongoing fashion if they wanted me to think i meant as much to them as my dc mean to me.

But that's not necessarily the goal of a parent who is experiencing the same as the OPs DP.

It's not the goal of my DH.

He has accepted that his DCs will never have the kind of relationship with him that he hoped they would. Irrespective of whether he "fights" or not, the relationship has been damaged, allegations made, milestones have been missed, and inappropriate information shared.

His goal now is not to secure his own "good name" with them. What he wants to do is to minimise the impact of his conflict with their mum. He has accepted that while they are DCs, and the mum has influence in their lives, the damage done by being there, even when they say they want him there, is too great. Yes, of course, they would feel rejected if he didn't reply to a text that may be from them. But long term, the damage done as a result of answering the text would greater. He knows this through experience.

It sounds like that is where the OPs DP is. His DD is still entirely dependent on her mum. She is not yet a teen. So, while replying to her may limit the short term feelings of rejection, long term, he believes the damage done to her will be greater. I think the OP should trust him.

I suppose it's just one of those differences. Rightly or wrongly I feel strongly about parents maintaining a bond with their children. Maybe I'm wrong. I just couldn't respect DH if he backed down in that situation. The thought of him having kids somewhere and not taking any legal means necessary to know them would irrevocably alter my opinion of him. Someone else might be able to justify it, I don't think I could.

Again the bottom line is if someone thought their dc's RP was that vindictive that they couldn't tolerate the dc seeing the nrp I couldn't sit with that concern. I would fight MORE. That would give me more justification to ensure access.

When my parents split, my bio father agreed not to have any contact with me (I was about 3), he later agreed that my mum's husband could adopt me. If he had been in my life, things would have been much worse for me growing up so it can be the best decision for the child as well.

headinhands

You are confusing being vindictive towards an Ex, with being Vindictive towards the child. One does not always equal the other.

I have seen NRPs fight for years to see their own children. I have seen them removed from school premises by police, I have seen orders (requests) from RPs that the NRP is to recieve no information about the child, I have seen NRPs bankrupt themselves and have breakdowns.

I have seen the issues that have been caused by this for children, there is a point at which you have to stop, not only for the well being of the child but for your own well being as well.

As for wanting evidence that someone tried to see you and build a relationship, all those that I know have kept all of the details in the hope that one day their child will want to see them.

not only for the well being of the child

I can't imagine a scenario where discovering that my child's main care giver was emotionally immature would result in my having less contact rather than striving to have more.

If I split from my DH and he threatened to make false allegations in order to deny me access to our dc I just can't imagine laying down. It would just show me that he definitely shouldn't have all the parental responsibility.

When you choose to have dc with a man don't you want to believe he will act in the interests of your dc? If something happens to me I trust my DH will put my dc's welfare first. The op's DH isn't putting his children first.

headinhands

"I can't imagine a scenario"

this is where your problem is, these people don't have to imagine they are living what you cannot understand.

what you cannot understand

What's Mumsnet for then? Only people to respond with exactly the same experiences as the op? I maintain that I would fight for access to my dc, as would you, and that as u mentioned earlier, men get let off the hook easier than women. DH says this whole issue reminds him of Hansel and Gretel; the woman is demonised while the feckless father is pitied.

If I split from my DH and he threatened to make false allegations in order to deny me access to our dc I just can't imagine laying down. It would just show me that he definitely shouldn't have all the parental responsibility

You are assuming that a court would acknowledge your concern and agree that a parent who blocks contact is not capable of being a primary parent.

That's not how family court works.

You are not fighting to prove they are a crap parent - you are fighting to show that your DC needs you in their life. Unfortunately, even if a resident parent frustrates contact, courts continue to consider them good parents.

Dh has a job working with children.

If his ex threatened to make false allegations, he takes the risk that if she does he loses his job, with no chance of working again.

No job, no house, no child maintenance. Likely no unsupervised access, if any, to his children, if he can afford the train fare to a contact centre.

Children lose out on a functional father, who is there for them when and if he is allowed access, or they reach independence. They also lose out on maintenance.

And yes, this can go on for years and years, being awarded access- which the rp has no consequences if they simply continue to refuse access.

I would rather dh kept his shit together, kept his house and job so the kids have a home and family if ever they need it, than end up throwing it all away on lawyers for access rights that can be ignored and get nowhere. He's no use to them skint, jobless and homeless, is he?

anotherone yy - definitely.

When DHs ex realised that all of those things might happen to DH - when his job was affected and SocServ made contact with my DDs dad etc, she phoned DH in tears sobbing that it had 'gone too far'. She thought the court would accept her word without question and just do what she asked which was to stop DH expecting her to abide by the court order that was in place.

The problem was, even though she didn't want the investigations to continue, she couldn't stop them. Months of suspicion, questions and interference.

Fortunately, DHs employers were understanding and he has subsequently moved back into the area of work from which he was temporarily removed. But, it could have been very different. We could have lost our home, my DD could have been prevented from spending time with DH, which would have effectively split our family. One of the things in our favour was our willingness to engage in the process - I actually called SocServ as soon as DHs ex made the allegation, rather than wait for CAFCASS to make the referral once they'd seen the court papers.

headinhands

Breaking your post down

What's Mumsnet for then? Only people to respond with exactly the same experiences as the op?

It is as you say for sharing different opinions but that only works if you recognise that other people have a point and not evrything is black and white.

I maintain that I would fight for access to my dc, as would you,

I would fight but I recognise that their is a point where fighting for the child can be very very destructive to the child.

and that as u mentioned earlier, men get let off the hook easier than women.

wasn't me, and it has been ignored that this man has fought for his child.

DH says this whole issue reminds him of Hansel and Gretel; the woman is demonised while the feckless father is pitied.

You may well want to point out that we don't know if the father is "feckless"

If my child's main care giver was toxic I wouldn't stop fighting. No one is toxic in just one area.. A person's commitment to their dc speaks volumes, the op knows this:, hence this thread.

If my child's main care giver was toxic I wouldn't stop fighting

But by fighting you increase the toxicity - both from the primary carer directed at the child, and from the conflict between the DCs parents.

You are saying that in order to maintain your reputation with your own child you would expose them to greater damage.

I'd hope that most parents were selfless enough to let their child go rather than deliberately make their lives worse.