would you leave your partner if they didn't see your DSC?

[mendimoo]

DP has a ten year old DD from his previous marriage. I have DS (7) and we have (almost) 2 year old DD together. We met when I was pregnant with DS and we had DSD 80% of the time, with me caring for DSD while he worked very frequently. DPs ex stopped contact for a year when DSD was 6. DSD was amazing when contact was reinstated and we all got along fabulously again. Then when she was 8 her mum stopped contact again and this time DP went to court and had it reinstated. Again, DSD was very happy to be seeing us again. Her mum has openly admitted she's jealous when DSD goes back talking about being happy here and the contact stoppage was for very minor reasons - like not being able to watch DSD in her Christmas concert because DP was in hospital.

Fifteen months ago, DPs ex stopped contact again. She was angry because her and DSD had fallen out and DSD said she preferred it here. DPs ex said if he sought contact via court she'd fabricate allegations against him. DP felt dejected and resigned himself to having no power and not seeing DSD until she was old enough to be able to manage it herself.

Yesterday, DP received a message saying: "Hello daddy, it's DSD. I'd really like to see you, can you come and pick me up soon?" We don't know if it's really from DSD or his ex but I think either way it's a way of getting to see DSD again and that he should jump at the chance. He, however, has no intention of replying and says it's just his ex playing games. I keep imagining poor DSD sitting waiting for a reply, wondering why we don't want to see her etc and feel heartbroken for her. Aibu to think I can't be with someone that wouldn't do everything in their power to see their child? I can't believe he'd actually wait another 4/5 years rather than have a stressful time now.

ThumbWitchesAbroad DsS is a teenager now.
So if OH received a message from DS, he would of course respond!
If it was a message from XP, no, he would not. Short of an emergency or illness, it would be ignored.

Responding to her messages has landed him in enough trouble over the past decade. She's a dangerous woman, and he won't deal with her on any level now, we've learned our lesson the hard way with that.

But if, in OPs case, DH has received a message and he was unsure whether it had come from his child, or the XP writing as his child, he wouldn't ignore it, just incase it is his child, who would then feel ignored and overlooked by their father.

Yes, that is what I would have expected him to do, I must say, and I do for the OP's DH as well. Just in case it IS his DD - I couldn't take the chance and leave it.

I wonder what happened to the OP?

I'm still reading miscellaneous, I am just lost for words and don't know what to think or do.

Court really isn't so expensive as even if he went and self represented it would be better than doing nothing AFAIC. Of course she wouldn't say anything about making accusations in writing, she's horrid but not stupid. Any accusations could well lead to social services involvement and him being suspended from his job. I also work with children so it could impact me. Only having supervised contact isn't sustainable long term. I can see why he feels downhearted but how much I miss and feel for DSD overtakes that and I can't comprehend how it isn't the same for him.

how much I miss and feel for DSD overtakes that and I can't comprehend how it isn't the same for him.

I went though this. I knew that I spent more time thinking and worrying about DHs DCs than he did after they went no contact the second time. I spent one rainy Sunday putting together a photobook of pics that we'd taken over the years before contact was stopped. I had two copies printed and DH never even looked at it. Ive still got the other in case They ever reconnect. I used to spot things they'd like in shops, and squirrel them away. All the while, DH seemed to be unmoved.

He wasn't. He was just dealing with it differently. Later, when he was ready, he had a few sessions with a counsellor and his approach to the situation changed.

It will never be the same for you as it is for him. You will each grieve in very different ways.

Wouldn't bother me - their relationship with their child is their business

Livia I think you tell a lot about someone by how they treat other people - including their children, parents, siblings, friends etc. I would just not want to be with someone who, however nice he might be towards me, showed unkindness or unpleasant attitudes towards someone else.

We can all be on our 'best behaviour' to our immediate partners - but I prefer to look at the wider picture. That's where the expression comes from about watching how someone behaves towards a waiter/waitress when you are out on a dinner date.

Nope. I couldn't respect a father who relinquished the relationship with his child so easily. I would tell him that you're fast losing respect for him. Why didn't you have a problem when he didn't put up a fight for access before?

"So easily"

For the sounds of it, headinhands, op's dh has put up a big fight, spent a lot of money on legal acess, only for it to be withdrawn on the ex's whim.

He's hardly given up easily.

The 'so easily' refers to him giving up contact after his ex made a threat to fabricate accusations. In that situation I'd be more determined to keep access ongoing, not less, seeing that the RP had such a poor character.

Plus I gather at this point his dd was about 10. So dad was giving up potentially 6/8 years of access, at a time when a child is going through massive emotional changes. If my DH rescinded their relationship with their kids under those circumstances is view him as a spineless coward and can't see how I could respect him.

head When the needs of children conflict, it's impossible for most people to be quite so black and white as you suggest.

If the OPsDP had said. "I'm doing whatever it takes and I don't care about the impact on anyone else" then he would have been very selfish. He and the OP had a newborn. The babies needs had to be considered. If you have ever been involved in a high conflict family court case, you'll know it is financially, and emotionally demanding, and takes up HUGE amounts of time. It would rob a baby of that time with its father.
Add to that the risk of losing a family income, the chance of social services involvement in the family, and another family (the OPs DDs Father and/or paternal relatives) to consider, it certainly wasn't a straightforward decision by any means.
What is right for one family is not necessarily right for another. Who decides what is the "least worse" option? Whether the potential damage to one child would be greater than the potential damage to another?

When my DHs ex made allegations, my DDs dad was considering a court application of his own to limit her contact with DH - my DD may have lost her home with me and DH, and her wider family with us, because he was concerned about the allegations made.

That should not automatically be considered a "price worth paying" by one child in order to try and secure something for another - it's far more nuanced than that.

it's far more nuanced than that.

The circumstances outlined mean the DH should be more determined to secure access, not less, if the RP is emotionally manipulative and spiteful. A baby isn't deserving of two parents than a child of any other child. If anything a pre-teen's needs are more complex and need as many positive role models, not less.

Sorry, a baby isn't any more deserving. And as for the time it takes to secure access, I'm assuming it's not a 24/7 activity where the df is unable to see his other children. I feel your own circs and resulting need to justify such lousy commitment is colouring your view.

headinhands

I feel your own circs and resulting need to justify such lousy commitment is colouring your view.

I feel that your lack of understanding is colouring your view.

feel your own circs and resulting need to justify such lousy commitment is colouring your view.

Well of course my own circs are colouring my view although in my case DH did fight for contact (and faced allegations which resulted in his being excluded from certain responsibilities) - so I'm not trying to justify anything. It's exactly because I have been party to those conversations that I know it's not as simple as you make out. You'd approve of my DH. He did what you suggest. But he certainly showed a damn sight more consideration for me and Dd then you are for the OP and her DCs. He saw first hand the impact it had on us.

An emotionally manipulative and spiteful ex is not considered to be unsuitable as a primary carer. What is the ultimate penalty for breaking a family court order? How much time, and how much money do you think should be invested in achieving that? What, if any, limitations do you think are acceptable?

And your assumption that fighting a hostile family court case it is not a 24/7 activity suggests that you don't have personal experience. It is all consuming. It is laughable to anyone who has experienced it to suggest that the OPs DPs life would be unaffected - his role an a father, husband and employee would all be detrimentally impacted.

He's more than likely bloody hurt at losing his daughter more than once

This is not a valid reason for a parent's actions, a parent is supposed to protect their child, not their own feelings.

Obviously in this case, however, there is more at stake

So ultimately a parent must cow-tow to a vindictive ex? Not a message I would want to transmit to my children and not one I would 'buy' from a parent I hadn't seen during childhood.

It seems that's it's more acceptable for a male parent to yield to threats for the RP than a female. I can't imagine giving up access to my children on such a basis. I don't have my head in the clouds by any stretch, I merely acknowledge the bond between child and parent from both sides. And I stand by my judgement that any parent who backs down in the face of such machinations is spineless.

head no, there no "ultimately" anything - it's a crap, dynamic situation in which no one wins and in which parents have to constantly walk a tightrope as to what is the "least worst" option for everybody.

The issues that a parent like the OPs DP must consider when they are single, and their DC is young, are very different from those when the DC is a teen and the parent is married, for instance. Unless of course, you subscribe to the POV that a parent in the OPs DPs position should not remarry and have further DCs? There are some well respected experts in the field of parental alienation who do endorse that approach. It does strike me as even more "cow-tow'ing" than accepting the situation as the hostile parent dictates.

I stand by my judgement that any parent who backs down in the face of such machinations is spineless.

Irrespective of the price paid? You never did answer where you think the boundaries are? . Should a father keep fighting until his DCs mother is imprisoned for breach of court orders? Until residency is changed and the mother disowns the child? Some mums can't see that their own conduct will have long lasting implications; as high profile media cases have shown. If securing contact with one parent robs them of the other, is that best for the DCs?

And what about the impact on themselves? Fathers have been left jobless, homeless due to the cost of ongoing court action. Dads have committed suicide as their mental health has deteriorated in the face of repeated allegations and endless battles.

What is an acceptable level of sacrifice in your opinion? When is enough, enough? Or is it always a case that "good dads" fight at all costs, no matter what the damage, in your eyes?

Should a father keep fighting until his DCs mother is imprisoned for breach of court orders?

If my DH had dc from a previous relationship, and his ex was making false allegations which my ex was concerned about? No, I wouldn't just back down. I would be disappointed if my DH did. I would use the courts, gather evidence to the contrary. Kick up my own fuss. Me and DH would both feel that access to all our children was important. I couldn't respect him if he backed down. That's not the sort of man I could value and hold in the regard necessary for a life long commitment. Are you saying your need to live with your DH surpasses his access to his children?

Time give me some scenarios where you would you be prepared to lose seeing your children?

"What is an acceptable level of sacrifice in your opinion?"

There isn't one, I find it very hard to think in that way. I think there's a difference in understanding that I cannot bridge.

I cannot imagine any situation in which I would stop fighting for my child. No situation in which I'd be justified in severing my bond with my child. No situation where I would ever let go. DS is my life and my soul, and if that sounds weirdly obsessive, so be it. Everything I do is for the good of my child. So, no, I can't see my love measured in the level of sacrifice.

It's a terrible situation and I have a lot of sympathy for fathers unfairly cut out of their children's lives.

But that doesn't equate to empathy with a parent who has received a message asking for help, that might be from his child, and to not raise a finger to even find out if it is his child in distress.

Head, if i'm jobless and homeless because i've spent all my time and money on courts and access, which is repeatedly ignored, how do you propose i see my children?

I can't have them overnight, i can't buy food, clothes, pay maintenance, take them anywhere.

Surely it's better to stop before you reach that point, so if your ex decides to restore access you can actually provide for and see the children?

Plus many people make a big point about nrp paying their share. If you can't pay maintenance your children may suffer.

The issue is the courts have no power to enforce access. They don't fine or imprison for non-compliance, as that would be detrimental to the children. i think if a father has been to court for access several times, and it's been ignored by the ex everytime, then there comes a point where you admit defeat.