would you leave your partner if they didn't see your DSC?

[mendimoo]

DP has a ten year old DD from his previous marriage. I have DS (7) and we have (almost) 2 year old DD together. We met when I was pregnant with DS and we had DSD 80% of the time, with me caring for DSD while he worked very frequently. DPs ex stopped contact for a year when DSD was 6. DSD was amazing when contact was reinstated and we all got along fabulously again. Then when she was 8 her mum stopped contact again and this time DP went to court and had it reinstated. Again, DSD was very happy to be seeing us again. Her mum has openly admitted she's jealous when DSD goes back talking about being happy here and the contact stoppage was for very minor reasons - like not being able to watch DSD in her Christmas concert because DP was in hospital.

Fifteen months ago, DPs ex stopped contact again. She was angry because her and DSD had fallen out and DSD said she preferred it here. DPs ex said if he sought contact via court she'd fabricate allegations against him. DP felt dejected and resigned himself to having no power and not seeing DSD until she was old enough to be able to manage it herself.

Yesterday, DP received a message saying: "Hello daddy, it's DSD. I'd really like to see you, can you come and pick me up soon?" We don't know if it's really from DSD or his ex but I think either way it's a way of getting to see DSD again and that he should jump at the chance. He, however, has no intention of replying and says it's just his ex playing games. I keep imagining poor DSD sitting waiting for a reply, wondering why we don't want to see her etc and feel heartbroken for her. Aibu to think I can't be with someone that wouldn't do everything in their power to see their child? I can't believe he'd actually wait another 4/5 years rather than have a stressful time now.

headinhands
"If my child's main care giver was toxic I wouldn't stop fighting. No one is toxic in just one area.."

You can be completely "toxic" (your word) against one person and not the child. the continued knock on effect is bad for the child, but some people never stop being vindictive and nasty against their Ex and sometimes it is best for the child for one of the parents to stop.

If my ex threatened to make false allegations why would I think it best to back off? Would you do that yourself with your own dc or is it only okay if it's your sdc? Again I just couldn't back off if I thought my dc were being harmed by an adult who was supposed to be looking after them.

Sorry this is a long un as I've been working it out as I've gone along...

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that someone can be incredibly, awfully abusive to their ex partner, using a child as ammunition and fire power in the fight to win against ex partner at all costs, year after gruelling year, not caring about the collateral damage done to that child in this war to end all wars... Yet when it comes to the child, oh, that parent is SUCH a good mother/ father.

Because they're not, are they? In the slightest.

You see it in posts on here from women being abused (physically, mentally, financially, socially, sexually, emotionally, take your pick), but then finish their posts by saying: 'but he's not all bad, he's a really good father"

Which of course, he's not.

You cannot abuse one person, and be a super good person to another. Or be an excellent person and role model to one person, but an evil sadistic torturer to another. If what's happening is really bad, then why do you think they'll be able to lock all that inside for another person?

And when that 'other' role, is being a parent, I'd say it's pretty damn important if that 'good parent' actually thinks nothing of using the child in their care as 'leverage', or a tool to manipulate and trick and coerce into being cannon fodder in this war... that person will be doing harm to that child.

Just because it seems quieter to let that parent 'win', and walk away... How can you think that person who has behaved so terribly will behave to your child?

Children push buttons. Children are inherently annoying at times. Children can be selfish little creatures who cannot see that mummy/ daddy is tired, that they're trying their best but right now they need quiet! And children don't care if your're late for work, they just want the zebra socks and waahhhh... Basically, children are annoying and if they're with someone who abuses others, how long before that creeps out into the parent-child relationship?

Or perhaps they'll 'just' teach your child to be as manipulative and cruel as they themselves are. Abuse in a less direct way.

Either way, I'd be fighting like hell to stay in my child's life, to help that child, to give that child another parent. Because they need it.

And that's why I couldn't give up fighting for my child, against a parent who behaves so cruelly (abusively?) towards me.

NB it would be different in different situations, such as when the parent fighting for access is abusive or unsuitable to be an active parent. All the scenarios we're talking about on this thread are based on the child being resident with a parent who is deliberately blocking access and using underhand and harmful strategies to ensure the child doesn't get contact.

I'd hope that most parents were selfless enough to let their child go rather than deliberately make their lives worse.

It's not about being selfless, it's about being a parent even when it's not convenient to secure good care for your children. It's not about a power struggle, if you're certain your dc is being emotionally abused by the pcg then roll your sleeves up and tackle it. You're dc get one childhood. If you know their main care giver is manipulative then make the necessary fuss

headinhands
"If my ex threatened to make false allegations why would I think it best to back off?"

In my case, I would have to think hard about it because I could lose my children, my job, my career, access to my partner's children, and ultimately my partner.

It wouldn't be a choice that I would make easily, but unless I could provide substantial evidence that that was what my Ex was doing I would have to step down.

But you keep bringing in harm, abuse or toxic to the children, which may not be happening here.

MiscellaneousAssortment

I have said all along that these things are not black and white, so yes I believe that it is possible to be a good parent whilst being an absolute shit to another, I have seen it, Whether it is to an Ex partner, a work colleague or a friend.

Trouble is that, as has been said, the family courts aren't going to act against a parent who is "toxic" unless there is outright neglect/cruelty/abuse to the child - it takes a fair bit for the courts to deem a parent as unfit.

Parental alienation is a recognised issue, but even with that being recognised, it's STILL not enough to remove the child from the alienating child.

Fighting to remain in the child's life - to be the "stable" parent, the "good" one - is only any use if the courts had greater powers to hamstring the "toxic" parent; but they don't. So, fight away, and all the while, the child suffers because of it. Not enough to create a neglect/cruelty case, so not enough that the courts will order the child moves to the NRP's care - but enough to make the child's life a fucking misery in the meantime.

I get the whole "I'd do anything" idea - currently, I feel exactly the same, that no one would keep me from my children - but IF it turned out that the best thing for THEIR wellbeing was for me to back off, then that IS what I would do. That doesn't mean I don't care about them, or that I'm not "fighting" for them - just that their day-to-day wellbeing is less awful if I stay clear.

If you know their main care giver is manipulative then make the necessary fuss

To what end? As thumb says, family courts rarely act on this.

If a parent has been told by a court 2,3 or even 4 times that despite the primary carer withholding contact, making false allegations, abusing or even assaulting the target parent that the court still considers them suitable and are going to 'give them another chance' - why continue to make the DCs lives miserable?
What makes you think that the 5,6 or 7 time, things will be different?

One poor child was subject to 37 separate applications to court by her parents.

Miscellaneous.

I think theres a difference between fighting for access, where the rp is refusing, but isn't inherently abusive.

If i honestly thought they were, i wouldn't be fighting for access, i'd be fighting for sole residency, which is enforceable if granted.

Difference being i would not leave my child in the care of an abuser. Repeatedly fighting for access is no use to anyone, as it can't be enforced, and leaves the child in an abusive home, even if the ex does comply.

So sad for that poor child. YANBU.

The issue is what courts perceive as abusive. There is far more tolerance of physical abuse in family court than in society as a whole and emotional abuse is not really considered at all.

So continuing to apply to court, when it is an exercise in proving a point rather than making a real difference, becomes abuse in itself.

One poor child was subject to 37 separate applications to court by her parents.

Does the child go to court every time?

hands there are often several hearings for each application - but no, a child rarely "goes to court". They are subject to reports by CAFCASS, maybe medical and psychological reports, they may have an advocate appointed - so there is lots of contact between court appointed representatives and the child over weeks and months. In exceptional circumstances the judge may speak to an older child in chambers, but they are not routinely "in court".
However, it's quite common for parents in high conflict cases to bring along the child to the court building on hearing days.

Excellent post miscellaneous

It's not selfless to let the child go.

Also mmy ex does not see his children or not much and i don't stop contact in any way. I'd be happy with50% of the time with him. Far far too many men find it easier just to stop contact. Instead they should be fighting for it. Can he make it worth her while - eg give her more money if she lets the daughter see him? Unfortunately bribery does work. Also could he offer (him not you obviously) to do all her washing when she comes - she could come with bin bags of it - in other words he does a lot of the dross nasty bit of being a good parent (him not you of course).

Can he make it worth her while - eg give her more money if she lets the daughter see him? Unfortunately bribery does work. Also could he offer (him not you obviously) to do all her washing when she comes - she could come with bin bags of it

And this, ladies and gentleman, is the reason family courts do not have the capacity to cope with the demands put upon them.

That will continue, all the while this type of solution is considered by mothers as an acceptable and viable way of ensuring a child's right to a relationship with both parents is maintained. All the while it is seen as acceptable for a mother to "put a price" on permitting her DCs to have a relationship with their father.

A sad, but honest reflection, of wider society. Thank you blyton - you have reassured me that I am not misunderstanding, or misjudging, my DHs ex. There really are women who think like you do.

So the child in question didn't actually sit in 37 court hearings. I thought not.

If someone made a false allegation against you, and your dc where put into care, how long do you fight for them?

It seems sp here are happier for their dp's to give up on nrc when they wouldn't expect the same for their own dc. And the message to the sdc? You're worth less to your dad than the kids he lives with. As for someone saying their dp backed off after threats because of a professional commitment he had. Lousy. If someone said 'you can see your kids or carry on in your professional role, not both' there would be no competition. I wouldn't want to be the parent having that conversation with their adult dc 'well you see sweetie I wanted to be a governor at my other dc's school more than I wanted to see you, sorry about that, am sure you'll understand'.

Why would you tolerate bullying to stop you seeeing a nrp when you never would tolerate it to prevent caring for a rp.

I just keeping coming back to the op. I would think my dp pathetic if he didn't fight for access.

There really are women who think like you do.

I think blyton was suggestion that seeing as the ex is screwed up in her thinking anyway, not that such a suggestion could be applied to a situation where the parents were actual proper grown ups.

So the child in question didn't actually sit in 37 court hearings. I thought not.

N, your right, she wasn't in court each time. In fact, she was subject to far more investigations, interviews and examinations than 37. She had invasive medical procedures to seek evidence to prove her mothers allegations. She had numerous psychological assessments to determine whether she was being influenced by one parent or another. She has samples taken to test for substances. She received numerous sessions of therapy and counselling.

No, that's all par for the course, isn't it? No reason to think a child would be unduly affected by any of that. It's fine. Not a problem.

I would think my dp pathetic if he didn't fight for access

Didn't fight for access, or didn't secure access? Because they are very different. And again, I ask, what to you consider to be "fighting"? Would you really expect your DP to sacrifice his relationship with you, with other DCs, his home, his profession, in order to prove a point?

headinhands

"As for someone saying their dp backed off after threats because of a professional commitment he had. Lousy. If someone said 'you can see your kids or carry on in your professional role, not both' there would be no competition. I wouldn't want to be the parent having that conversation with their adult dc 'well you see sweetie I wanted to be a governor at my other dc's school more than I wanted to see you, sorry about that, am sure you'll understand'."

Thank you for minimising my career as a "professional commitment", it just backs up how little you understand of how a false allegation can be.

you keep coming back to how "pathetic" people are when not fighting for access, but people are fighting for access, they are in a situation where the RP is preventing them form having access.

I have seen the damage this causes to the children and the NRP, I have heard children that have been brought back from seeing Camhs and cafcass and saying that they don't see the point as nothing will change.

Do you have any idea how heart breaking it is to see a child caught in the middle of these battles.

The issue here is not ignoring the text - it's that he's not going through the proper legal channels to establish consistent access. If the ex is threatening to fabricate allegations then let her and if they're fabricated she won't have a leg to stand on. The ex, from your account, is a pretty manipulative, difficult person and he's leaving his daughter entirely to her care which has got to be very damaging.

proper legal channels to establish consistent access. If the ex is threatening to fabricate allegations then let her and if they're fabricated she won't have a leg to stand on.

The OPs DP has already established that going through proper legal channels has not established consistent access. Previous court orders have been ignored. Enforcement action has been taken. Contact has still been prevented. How many times should a parent return to court hoping something will be different next time?

And as has been explained unthread, it's rather a hollow victory if the ex's allegations are proven false, but the target parent has lost their job, their home and their relationship with their other DCs. And of course, the findings in family court are confidential, so the target parent cannot publicly clear their name.

It wouldn't be an instant dealbreaker, because while I think he should fight to see his daughter and I would expect him to reply to the text message, it must be gut wrenching and have a terrible effect on his mental wellbeing every time access is withdrawn.

His hopes are built up and then the rug is pulled away from him all the time.

Bear in mind that the money involved in this battle with going to court all the time will ultimately impact on you and your child. I'm sure you wouldn't want your child to suffer as a result of him getting into debt.

It's a very tough situation and my heart goes out to his DD, who if she sent the message is sitting waiting for her dad to respond. Then thinking he doesn't care or love her enough to make the effort.

That's what can lead to a sense of abandonment (even though he hasn't abandoned her) and girls having daddy issues.

It's terrible how some mothers will use their children like this and fail to see the long term consequences.

One thing I would advise, is that he documents the history of this and all the effort he has made over the years and how his Ex caused problems, because I can bet she's told her DD a different story and that will damage any chance of a good relationship between them, if he doesn't put his side across.

Would you really expect your DP to sacrifice his relationship with you, with other DCs, his home, his profession, in order to prove a point?

Prove a point!? It's a relationship with his dc fgs. Again, there'd be no question of willingly going through the above and more it it was a rdc. Non rdc sadly seem more expendable and people are less inclined to suffer for children living elsewhere. I'm heartened by the sps on the thread that would have little respect for a dp that didn't keep going for access. That didn't give up. Not one who made it loud and clear that there was so much more important to the parent than access to all his children.

Prove a point!? It's a relationship with his dc fgs.

But it's not, is it? Because no matter how many orders a court issues, it's not the court that makes a difference, it's whether or not the DC mum decided to comply with it.

A dad who fought can say with his head held high, "I know your childhood was crap, son, but at least I never stopped fighting for you". That is the point they can prove.

A dad who steps aside due to intransigent hostility may never be able to say that to their DC, and may never be "forgiven" but at least they know that the DCs childhood was less crap than it otherwise would have been had they been subject to repeated court applications which had no chance of changing their mothers behaviour.

I appreciate you have an issue with stepmums and NRP being able to turn their back on DCs but I hope that you never lose a child who you have welcomed into your own family.

headinhands

It's a relationship with his dc fgs.

What type of relationship would you expect to have with a child that continually had access to their parent removed, for any infraction, at any point that the RP wants to?