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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ban her DD?

210 replies

LauraJenson · 27/07/2016 21:04

I have 3DD, 17, 15, 12 and a DS, 5 with ASD.

We have an above ground pool in the garden that my teens and their friends have been using on a daily basis for the past 2 weeks and even though it was cloudy today, I had teens going in and out of the garden all day.

They were using the gate, so unless I entered the kitchen or looked out of the upper level windows, I couldn't see who was there or what was going on.

We have rules in place, e.g not to use the pool until it's 11 in the morning, 3 friends max each at one time and no more etc and my DDs have rarely broken them as it would mean they just can't use it any more.

Took DS out for the day, came home absolutely exhausted this evening to have a woman I'd never seen waiting for me.

She was one of the mother's of a girl that DD3 (12 year old) had brought home.

The Mum was pretty furious as she didn't know where her DD (also 12) had been all day, did I not watch over my kids?

Surely if a strange child was in my home I should have asked if their parents knew they were here?

Their were also 2 boys in the pool (12 and 15) and she went on about how inappropriate it was for them to be swimming alone with a group of girls.

I was too shocked and too tired to really say anything back, I said I knew the boys and didn't have a problem with them, apologied as I just assumed teens would ask their parent before going to a strangers house and it wouldn't happen again as I'd keep an eye out for her DD and send her straight back if I saw her again.

She seemed surprised and her DD got really upset but I just said goodbye and went inside.

I doubt her DD will ever return but if she does would it BU to just send her home and tell DD3 not to bring her around.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
dimples76 · 27/07/2016 22:43

WorraLiberty this may be of interest

s.2(2) Occupiers Liability Act 1957:

S.2(2) - 'The common duty of care is to take such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the visitor will be reasonably safe in using the premises for the purposes for which he is invited or permitted by the occupier to be there.'

S.2(3)(a) - an occupier must be prepared for children to be less careful than adults

BackforGood · 27/07/2016 22:46

YANBU.
I would expect 12, 15, and 17 yr olds to be responsible enough to follow rules in a garden pool. As long as no-one goes in when they are alone, then they look after each other. I would expect a 12 yr old, who couldn't swim, to be aware of that fact and not get in (IME, people who can't swim rarely actually want to get into water).
It is absolutely the responsibility of the other parent to know where her dc is and what she's doing, and up to her to stop her if she has different parenting styles from you.

honeylulu · 27/07/2016 22:51

I was about to quote occupiers liability act 1957 (solicitor). You beat me to it dimples!
See also occupiers liability act 1984 which introduces additional duties owed to trespassers. I shit you not. Even someone in your without your permission can be owed a duty if you have reason to think trespassers may enter and you are aware of a potential danger to them.
Despite all that I agree with you OP. If my 11 year old had gone missing let alone gone swimming without my knowledge I'd have gone ballistic at him, not the poor parent whose property he'd imposed upon. (he is allowed out alone but has to tell me where etc.)

WorraLiberty · 27/07/2016 23:01

Thanks Dimples

However that Link is still a bit confusing.

It also says...

S. 2(3) (a) Child visitors

The courts will take into account the age of the child and level of understanding a child of that age may be expected to have

And...

Warnings and warning signs

It may be possible for an occupier to discharge their duty by giving a warning of the danger.

There is no duty to warn against obvious risks

To a 12 year old, a swimming pool is a very obvious risk of danger.

AddToBasket · 27/07/2016 23:01

OP, you are being very naïve. You are responsible in law for all those people in your pool. Just because you think your DCs are sensible etc does not remove your obligations to all these minors.

You are going to have to get a grip and supervise/padlock the pool.

elodie2000 · 27/07/2016 23:02

Your reply to this woman was perfect OP. In future, you will ensure that her DD does not enter your property again without your permission, when you are not there. If she is found at your home, you will send her straight back.
If anything, the girl should have been rightly told off by her Mum for going awol. I feel sorry for her though, - no more swimming in your pool for her.
As for your part, make sure you know who is over at your house (especially in the pool).
Get your DC to text you if people arrive when you're out.

Mycatsabastard · 27/07/2016 23:06

Only on mumsnet could an op state that a mother has gone ballistic at her because she lost track of her own child to receive endless critical comments about her own parenting and a swimming pool.

The op has made her judgements based on her dc's own abilities and how sensible they are. She has given them limits on how many they can invite over and they haven't exceeded that.

One child hasn't told her mother where she is going, goes mad at the op and it's the op's fault for not closely supervising all visiting dc.

I don't closely supervise the 10 year olds that visit my house to play with my dd. The kids here just roam in and each others houses and gardens all day long. And shock horror, we have not one, but two ponds!! And guess what? None of them have ever fallen in because they have been told to stay away from them and they have done.

The only time my back garden is out of bounds is when the five year old from next door comes over because he has no sense of danger at all and DOES need to be closely monitored. Unlike a 12 year old who was already out with friends and her mother clearly had no idea where she was anyway.

nokidshere · 27/07/2016 23:06

YANBU as far as the shouting from the other parent is concerned, it's her responsibility to know where her child is.

However, I echo the others in terms of responsibility for the pool. If someone on your premises had an accident or drowned the responsibility would be yours - regardless if that person was invited or not.

Whilst I might leave my 12 year old alone and In a pool unsupervised I would never leave other people's children in it unless I was there.

WorraLiberty · 27/07/2016 23:08

How can you padlock a pool?

nokidshere · 27/07/2016 23:12

You are missing the point Mycats..

The OP can't make that judgement for other people's children when they are on her property - legally she would be held responsible if the unthinkable happened. And that goes for any accident on your own property - you have the duty of care to make sure everyone in your home is safe.

If the house was empty and the gate unlocked and a child snuck into the pool it would be the owners responsibility not the parents of the child.

These are things that need considering that's all

KoalaDownUnder · 27/07/2016 23:13

I would argue that the OP neither 'invited' not 'permitted' (which would imply being asked) this child to be on her premises.

She didn't even know the child was there until after the fact.

Original poster
LauraJenson · 27/07/2016 23:14

About the supervision, all the parents should know. the DCs whose parents I personally know are aware that I don't supervise all the time when they're in the pool. Some have chosen not to allow their DCs over and others have decided that it's fine for their DC.

I've never had a parent who wasn't aware, so I was more surprised than angry at the woman, I'm assuming her DD has a phone as she managed to call her Mum and tell her my address.

If she shows up again, I'll send her home and I'll ask DD3 not to invite her over

If I couldn't contact any of my DDs regardless of the activity, I wouldn't blame whomever they were with.

OP posts:
georgetteheyersbonnet · 27/07/2016 23:15

*I'm pretty sure the 12 year old's parents are the ones legally responsible for the safety of their own child.

The OP does not have a legal duty of care towards anyone's 12 year old, if she's not on the premises.*

Yep, she does. See the occupiers liability act above....

Bear in mind that even though there is no legal minimum age to leave a child unsupervised generally, general guidelines are that children under the age of 12 should not be left unsupervised for long periods. You'd be cutting it fine going out and leaving a bunch of unsupervised 12-year-olds in your house alone all day. With a swimming pool, which presents a clear hazard which an adult should foresee, you're in a very difficult position. If anything serious were to happen, a lawyer would find it easy to argue that it was negligent knowingly to leave a group of 12-year-olds unsupervised in a pool.

So they go a friend's house during that time. No other adult there (same situation).
Are you saying that if said child hurt themselves with a knife at their friend's house, it's the friend's parent fault because they are unsupervised? If they fall in the stairs? If they burn themselves with the kettle? If they drink alcohol, too much alcohol? Even though those things could happen at their own house too?

Yes, though how likely someone was to be held legally liable would depend on whether an adult could have reasonably foreseen the possibility of harm coming to a child, and it also depends on the age of the child and how reasonable it would be to have expected them not to come to harm. So, for example, you'd be less likely to be held liable for a child burning themselves with the kettle or falling down stairs, because children of 12 could be reasonably expected to know these are common hazards to avoid. However if you went out and knowing left a group of 12-year-olds in a house that contained a plugged-in-chainsaw, say, or some illegal drugs, you'd be more likely to be held to be negligent for any resulting accident, because you ought to have foreseen the possibility of harm to minors as a result.

WorraLiberty · 27/07/2016 23:17

Yep, she does. See the occupiers liability act above....

I have. See my post about it above...

Mycatsabastard · 27/07/2016 23:18

No I don't think I am missing the bloody point.

The child in question should have told her own mother where she was going and who with. She should have told her mum that there would be a pool and that there would be no other parent but older teens.

It's not the ops responsibility to parent anyone else's children. Only her own. And the op did not invite the child.

The mother has no right to go shouting at the op because she can't keep track of her own child. It's her issue. Not the ops. Perhaps she needs to lay down some boundaries and rules with her own child before shouting about other peoples. Like letting her mum know where she's going?

Standard conversation with my oldest (who is 18 btw)

Mum I'm going out tonight
Where are you going?
(name town)
Who are you going with?
(names friends)
How are you getting there and back?
(bus/friends car)
What time will you be home?
Not sure, will text you

See? It's not hard. It's a conversation I've been having with her for years. She tells me, I don't worry (much!) and all is well. All I ask is that if she's going to stay out overnight, she texts me to let me know (her friends are far and wide, it's pretty common for them to crash at each others houses) or to be quiet if she's coming in late. Or to give me fair warning if we will have overnight teens so dp doesn't scare the crap out of them by coming down stairs naked at 5am to get ready for work.

WorraLiberty · 27/07/2016 23:21

If anything serious were to happen, a lawyer would find it easy to argue that it was negligent knowingly to leave a group of 12-year-olds unsupervised in a pool.

And another lawyer could argue that it was negligent to allow your 12 year old out, without checking where they were going and who was likely to be there (or not as the case may be).

It's just not cut and dried.

BackforGood · 27/07/2016 23:24

I am presuming this is one of those oversized paddling pool things - sort of a bit bigger than hot tub sized - rather than a 50m training pool with a diving board?

Chillyegg · 27/07/2016 23:26

On a side note. Just being nosy but er how big and deep is the pool?

georgetteheyersbonnet · 27/07/2016 23:27

Worra, minors in a swimming pool is definitely not considered obvious risks. Compare the level of legal liability and health and safety burden on public operators of swimming pools. My employer owns a private pool on our organisation grounds, and there are NO minors at all permitted on those premises at all, because the level of health and safety burden relating to the supervision of children in pools is very high.

You are absolutely going to be held liable if an unsupervised 12-year-old drowns in your pool. The risks from unsupervised water are high and many other countries have very stringent pool fencing laws. Should anything awful happen, you'd be much less likely to be held responsible if it were an older teen; but a 12-year-old would still be regarded as quite a young child in law.

Jayfee · 27/07/2016 23:28

But how would a parent know her child had access to an unsupervised pool to give or withold her permission? A visiting child of 14 drowned in her friend's garden swimming pool near here a couple of years ago while the parents who owned the pool were out

georgetteheyersbonnet · 27/07/2016 23:28

It's just not cut and dried

Unfortunately it pretty much is!

AddToBasket · 27/07/2016 23:29

The problem is not who asks/gets permission, it is who controls the pool. That's the OP. She IS responsible.

WorraLiberty · 27/07/2016 23:29

Meh! I think that one is for the lawyers to fight out george

Especially when the mother admits she had no idea where her DD was or who was there.

LucyPanda · 27/07/2016 23:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LyndaNotLinda · 27/07/2016 23:30

Isn't it the same as a hotel swimming pool? That there are no lifeguards and you swim at your own risk?

Anyway, that really is beside the point. It's not the OP's fault that the other parent didn't know where her DD was. And she's absolutely right to say that she'll send her straight home if she ever turns up again.