To not go back to this playgroup...

[Biscuitbrixit]

...after seeing a parent smack their 3yr old?

He was throwiing toys, she told him not to, he threw them again, she told him again, he threw them again, blah blah blah, went on for ages just remove him from situation ffs
She got all shouty & eventually, after about half an hour of him throwing toys and hurting kids she went over, picked him up by the arm, smacked his bum, yelled at him and sat him on a chair, then walked away, back to her friends. She's with a group of parents who tend to all sit together in a corner and let their kids roam free, no one really paying attention until someone gets hurt.

I was kind of sitting with my friend, thinking wtf!

So seeing a child being smacked at play group is worse than seeing a child smacked in a supermarket? I am asking this based on a response on the first page.

Jessieb887

Well said!

This has gone on Mumsnet Facebook and the comments on there are fairly lively - some people agreeing with OP, but a LOT of anger and quite nasty comments against the post (blood boil / seething / furious / it's pathetic / it pisses me off/ its judgemental / kids are brats / little shits / others are bitches etc). The comments are unnecessary, OP was asking a fair question. Obviously this has hit a raw nerve with people.....

Smacking at best is just lazy parenting, at worst is plain child abuse. I was smacked as a child, it did nothing to prevent me behaving badly, but occasionally made me fearful of my parents. Whether you realise it or not smacking does have a negative impact on your relationships with your parents. I never want my daughter to feel fearful of her parents, there are better ways to discipline your child and reinforce boundaries.

Alasalas of course not, you could have pulled your child back and NOT 'tapped' them, thus saving their life and also not resorting to hitting your own child

OP re going back to the playgroup, if you do like going there it would be a shame to stop. You could talk to the playgroup organisers and express your concerns. It could be that they need to do a gentle reminder to everyone of the playgroup rules.
They could get someone from the local children's' centre to hand out leaflets about their triple p parenting courses and other support groups.
If you aren't sure how this will be received by the playgroup maybe even often to volunteer occasionally! That always goes down well.

If children are getting out of hand and parents ignoring them, playgroups often have a singing session in the second half which everyone takes part in. This calms the children down and encourages parents to engage.

cordy no it made you have a negative relationship with your parents, don't speak for everyone.

Children's organisations like the NSPCC do not advocate smacking, and there is plenty of evidence it does not help with behaviour and can affect a child's relationship with their parents negatively.
However its no good just saying don't do it; it seems to be an entrenched behaviour, and it probably won't stop until it becomes illegal, a bit like wearing seatbelts, or smoking in public places.

I will never be ok with smacking a child. If I see it, it takes all of my effort not to go and cause a scene with the parent. Confrontation is not something I am afraid of.

I wouldn't be taking my DD back because that parent is teaching her that hitting when someone does something you don't like is acceptable. It isn't in our house, I don't want her thinking it is anywhere else. And to the parents who smack their child for hitting others, that is idiotic and hypocritical. I knew someone who bit her child because they had bitten her and then she boasted about it on Facebook! Her DS wasn't even a year old. I wanted to go to her DS and sweep him up in a big hug.

To all people saying that those who disagree with smacking are claiming to be 'perfect parents', have a good think about why you are hitting your child. Is it out of anger or a sense that that will teach them that their behaviour is wrong? If it's out of anger, that's despicable and (I don't care if I get flamed for this) abusive. If it's to teach them that their behaviour is wrong, they may not throw their toy or whatever it was again, but they will think that hitting is acceptable. Is that the message you want them to learn?

I was smacked like that, as were my 4 younger brothers.

My 4 year daughter has been smacked on the bum once or twice from me, just to snap her out of a very bad tantrum, worked both times, she calmed down, we hugged and I explained why she received the smack. Never had to use it again.

My son is 16 months and gets taps/smacks on the hand to show when the situation calls for it. Harming others, trying to touch something that could cause serious injury such as a hot oven. Better a smacked hand and shock than burnt and melting skin.

Counting down from 10, naughty step, sent to bed are other methods we use as well as taking things from them as punishment, but it's rare I need to do any kind of behaviour modification now with my daughter. My son is still young so we work towards the same goal, using words only.

Unless someone is beating a kid or verbally assaulting them I'd say let them get on with it. Different strokes for different folks. There are millions of people that were smacked as kids and I am sure the majority would say it didn't do them any harm. Just because we're told we should do something a certain way doesn't mean it is the right way.

For instance, pregnant women shouldn't eat eggs, however, it's now been claimed they can eat eggs and it's fine.

It's not the end of the world if it's not done in a spiteful or hard way, much worse that most children are not chastised at all and go on to terrorise everyone including adults. Went past a small child (maybe 3 or 4 ) a while ago and he tried to kick me and he wasn't playing he really wanted to kick me in a mean way!! I think more discipline is needed to show children that some behaviours are unacceptable, if you address it when they are young it will be easier as they grow. Try telling a fourteen year old about their behaviour if you've spent their younger years letting them get away with murder!

If a 3 or 4 year old is kicking, I would wonder either: they had learnt that behaviour from someone else (perhaps another child or sibling); or they were doing it for attention; or no-one had told them kicking is not acceptable. Also children that age who have not developed good language skills often go through biting / kicking / hitting phases through frustration at not being to communicate, so you teach them what behaviour is and is not acceptable, and help them to find other ways to communicate. Surely you are not advocating smacking a child to teach them not to kick? What message is that giving?

I do absolutely agree that children need discipline and firm boundaries set when they are young, otherwise it's a lot of trouble when they are teenagers. I just don't think smacking is the way to do it. It does not teach the child to respect you and does not address the underlying reasons for the behaviour.

it's telling them that kicking others hurts them, pain isn't good, here have some so you remember it.

You hurt others, you get hurt.

Whether that message is right or wrong, that is the thinking behind it.

The fact is that it's not actually illegal if no marks are left or an implement like a cane is not used. Lawful wording is below.
I don't smack my kids anymore, but before moving to this country I did. No implements or marks left though. It's common practice where I come from. I was smacked as a child too. A lot

It's something that's become passe as we've largely found better ways to do things, but it's always best not to judge people's parenting unless we have the whole story. None of us is perfect and we all tend to make mistakes.
I'd definitely go back to the playgroup, unless the organisers start joining in.

"Under Section 58 of the Children Act 2004, it is unlawful for a parent or carer to smack their child, except where this amounts to ‘reasonable punishment’, though this is not defined in the legislation. As such, whether a smack amounts to reasonable punishment will depend on the circumstances of each case, taking into consideration factors like the age of the child and the nature of the smack. Physical punishment will be considered ‘unreasonable’ if it leaves a mark on the child or if the child is hit with an implement such as a cane or a belt.

It is illegal for teachers, nursery workers and child care workers to smack another person’s child. If a person is employed privately by a parent, such as a baby sitter or nanny, the parent may give permission for that person to smack their child as long as it is reasonable and does not amount to an offence."

So - if someone hurts me, it's ok to hurt them back? An eye for an eye?

That children are not allowed to hurt others but adults are?

Ztunm, I know you're not advocating that approach, but I spent ages dinning into DS that just because someone pushes him doesn't mean he can push back. That would be fun if I was demonstrating the opposite.

Wow. Emotive responses. Her child was behaving badly and she reacted when he didn't listen for the upteenth time. She chooses to smack (not illegal btw). Yes she could have taken him outside but he may well have carried on when they went back in. Yes she could have taken him home, but maybe it's her only time in the week to socialise with friends. She didn't swear or do anything illegal.
I would smack my child on the bottom if needs be but the threat usually works. I also found the time out step to work wonders. However my child has recently stopped listening and responding to the time out step and a threat. She runs into the road and gets into all sorts of danger. I would smack if needs be. Every child is different and this mum decided to parent her child the way she wanted. It is not illegal. stop being so judgey. You don't know her circumstances.

" I was smacked as a child. No one ever died of smacked arse."

Not the point, not the point, not the point.
There's a lot of things no-one dies of that we shouldn't do, eh?

helloitsme

What has swearing got to do with anything? I'd far rather be sworn at than smacked.

I honestly think that if people have to use the 'it's not illegal' line to decide if something is right or wrong then they've handed over their critical thinking to the government. See it a lot on MN. Odd.

Helloitsme88 my thoughts exactly when I became a mum I had no idea other parents would be so judgey!! It's awful!

SteviebunsBottrittrundle I got the occasional light smack on the bum when I was a child and I do not feel any resentment about this. It was a quick resolution in some conflict situations. However, being sworn at and denigrated by one of my parents - also only sometimes in situations requiring some sort of parental discipline - still affects my self confidence today. In the situation described by the OP the mum's behaviour BEFORE the smacking was more concerning. She did not want to engage with the child in a meaningful way to try and stop his behaviour and then AFTER by leaving him alone. I think most parents make mistakes when overtired or if children are particularly challenging but if you try and communicate with your kids in an age appropriate way (including about boundaries and why they are there) as much as you can I would hope they would not be damaged for life by an occasional parental slip up. It sounds like this incident was the straw that broke the camel's back - the OP doesn't like the cliqueness and unruly behaviour by some children and so it would be best to find another playgroup / activity more in line with OP's and child's sensitivities / interests.

Crazy kitten - sorry to hear that. It's horrible to see parents swearing at children in that way. Yes tell children off, but no need for 'shut the f* up' or that kind of thing, as it's essentially bullying.

It also struck me that the mum was ignoring the child mostly and although had told him to stop had not really engaged with him properly. So it's fairly likely the bad behaviour was to get her attention, which he did end up getting. If children are routinely ignored they will try to get attention any way they can, even if this results in them being told off.

As for being judgey - there have been lots of comments on here being judgey about the 'off grid' parents and children who aren't disciplined enough, so it goes both ways.

I do try very hard not to be judgey. After 3 kids I have learnt there are lots of different ways to raise a child. I am fairly sure people judge me and my DS who has some sensory issues / additional needs because he doesn't always behave in a 'normal' way. I think before I had him when I just had one very nicely behaved little girl I was a lot more judgey. It has taught me a lot.
So I don't care if a child is bottle or breast fed, or what they wear, or what they are fed, or how much tv they watch, or what school they go to etc. As long as a child is loved...
But yes, hitting children I do get judgey about. I just really don't understand why everyone thinks it's ok.

Ha ha just read my post back and i don't mean to sound judgey about the mum ignoring her child - I too have gone to playgroups because I've been desperate for another adult to talk to, when you spend all day with kids you need a break. Just trying to explain the child's behaviour as I have read somewhere 'well he'd been told already so he deserved a smack' but it sounds like it could be attention seeking.