to think we can afford to have a baby on our income?

[LeilaBell]

DH and I have been talking about starting a family for some time. We both want to start a family, but we disagree on the timing.

DH says we possibly couldn't afford to have children in London on our current income, so we should wait until our salaries hopefully go up in a few years.We both feel ready for a baby but DH thinks our income in London is not enough to start a family, while I think we would be just fine.

Our household income (two earners) is nearly £70k a year, we have no mortgage/ rent (inherited a two bedroom property) and no debt. On top of that we aren't big spenders, so we have a good amount of savings for maternity leave/ emergencies.

I think that given our income we can afford at least a baby (if not two!). Perhaps I think so just because I am naive and I don't realize how expensive babies/ children are?

AIBU to think we can afford a baby already? Are children so much expensive than I think? Is having children in London only for the millionaires nowadays?

This isn't high for london.

Two things:

• do you live near state schools you'd be happy to send your kids to? Because you may find it a stretch to afford private school unless your income went up.
• regardless of HOW much money you have, if your DH thinks you don't have enough then he's going to feel sensitive when you start buying things for the baby. Children don't have to cost money, but you might want to buy things, and you should both be on the same page about what you are willing to spend.

It's not 'jealousy' - of course some have more money than others in this world. It's the apparent naivety/ignorance in asking if a ridiculous sum of money, without a mortgage to pay for, is enough to raise a child. The obvious answer in this case is yes, any child could more than comfortably be raised on half that amount. That's more money in a year that will come into my family in the next 5. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it does give a sense of bad taste when most people will never be that financially secure, reading how some poor sod won't be able to have kids until they know they can afford decent private school. That's not usually people's priority when planning kids, or am I just that low class?

^^ OP mention her PIL were still around therefore I'd assumed, correctly, that it was a more distant relative.

I don't know many people who have grandparents and children so that's not too unusual.

I still think it is that someone can be so completely unaware that many people will have children on an income much less than £70k, from which they'll need to pay for accomodation.

I've just seen that you have around £2000 left over to put into savings at the end of the month (yes, I am jealous - £2000 is more than our monthly income!), which even if you halved what you put into savings, you would still have more than enough. Also remember that when you have a baby you won't be spending £1000 on the things you do for yourselves at the moment.
I hate to say it, but to me it also sounds like your DH is just using the money as an excuse to not have a baby yet I'm pretty sure that anyone in this day and age who has access to newspapers, TVs, speaks to another human once in a while knows that people have children and manage on a hell of a lot less than £70k. Even if you do have this hypothetical baby and you become a SAHM and your income is halved, you would still be able to live comfortably on £35k - especially without having rent/mortgage to pay. (I'm sat here daydreaming now about what DH and I could do with an extra £10k a year if our income went up to £35k )

I genuinely thought this was a bullshit thread when I first posted....now I realise it is not - the OP is genuinely asking and I apologise for being brash in my first post!

Well, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert as I've never lived any further north than South Wales (briefly!)

However, I do think there are all sorts of things different people consider when having children. For instance, I wouldn't even consider having more children than bedrooms - I would have hated to have shared a room as a child - yet I know there are a lot of people on here who are baffled by that :) and see sharing rooms as very normal indeed.

We all do things differently, no bad thing. But the 'lucky' comments did jar rather; I concede that's my personal issue though.

Bear the OP asked for advice regarding her financial position. It wasn't boastful, she just laid out the facts.

As a PP said, many mumsnetters talk about private schools, cleaners, nannies etc, so whilst it might not be a post the 'vast majority' of posters can relate to, there will be some that could offer advice/help.

The OP wasn't trying to offend others who are in less favourable financial positions, she was just asking for advice regarding her own.

bearbehind if you read my OP I said that I thought we had more than enough. I asked other people who have a direct experience raising children if there was something I was missing.

I think we can afford a child easily. My DH does not. We clearly have different expectations about what it takes to provide a good upbringing.

My last question: "Is having children in London only for the millionaires nowadays?" was a rhetorical question, not meant to be taken literally. Of course the answer is no.

Yes, because you have a house with no mortgage.
It is the cost of having somewhere to live that would stop anyone with that income feel it is too difficult..

With several children at private schools in ~London (£15 each?) then you would be poorer. Will you need a nanny? How much would that be?

Again you could reflect back to your DP his desire to 'make it on his own' and still have exactly the same lifestyle he had when growing up.

Did his parents genuinely make it on their own or did they have considerable help from their parents? - latter is more likely.

Are the costs involved the same? No - private school etc is now phenomenally more expensive than when his parents were paying for his.

What jobs did his parents do, what income did they get from it and is it proportional to the job he does now? It sounds like you and he are very happy in your careers but have chosen to do something that is just not as well paid as what his parents did so if he sits and thinks rationally for a bit, his dreams are just not sensible.

This is not his fault - it's happening to a lot of adults who went to private school, grew up and decided to become teachers, doctors, solicitors etc which are all good careers but don't get you the kind of income they did in the 70s and 80s anymore. And they are now wondering they they can't buy a home in London and send their kids to private school when their parents did.

If you have been together 7 years and he still doesn't want to commit to a child..I would be concerned.

I think the money is not the reall reason.. Lots of talks about why not is there talk about how to make it work..

Posters are right when they say you would never have enough money.. Children can take up as much income as you want.. As people have said ( some in a very unkind way) People raise children on much less income.

Given that you have secure, free housing that no-one can take away from you providing you don't borrow against it I'd say your DH is on glue.

I think you need to agree on how you'd like to bring up your children. The big question is whether they will go to state schools (non fee-paying) or private schools (fee-paying). If your DH is adamant about sending his children to private school, that's something you need to discuss now. The other big questions are about work and childcare - who will take parental leave and for how long, will one or both of you work part time, etc.

FWIW, I think he's completely mad, but he probably just has very different expectations than most people, so you need to have some in-depth conversations to compare your expectations and hopefully find a compromise.

How many children do you want, btw? If you want more than one I can understand not wanting to leave it too late. There is no guarantee you will be able to conceive quickly each time.

*Did his parents genuinely make it on their own or did they have considerable help from their parents? - latter is more likely.

Are the costs involved the same? No - private school etc is now phenomenally more expensive than when his parents were paying for his.

What jobs did his parents do, what income did they get from it and is it proportional to the job he does now?*

His parents are true self-made people, they came from very poor backgrounds and worked their way up in a foreign metropolis (think for example: Singapore) that offered great opportunities but also very high costs. FIL is a lawyer and MIL was a SAHM.

DH and his siblings were all raised in this city (although the family is British, they were essentially long term expats) and they were went to exclusive schools and had the best opportunities in life.

DH and I are both in creative industries where the earning potential is relatively limited. We may aspire to reach £50-60k each in 10 or 20 years from now, provided we both decide to go for (and achieve!) high-pressure demanding director level jobs. But we will never ever manage to earn what FIL has been earning in the last 20 years of his career, even combining two incomes.

My husband and I have the same income, £14k of it goes into our mortgage per year and we can still definitely afford the baby we're having. We've saved money to cover mat leave and when I go back to work childcare will be around £8k per year and we can still afford it. We're not overly careful with money either. Not sure why your husband wouldn't think you can afford a child tbh

OK so your DH has to cut his cloth according to his choices in life - his DF sounds like an exceptional man but maybe he feels a bit in his shadow with his feeling he has to do it all on his own, especially if he is getting houses etc handed to him.

He's chosen a great creative career - one in fact his father probably would be rubbish at - but it's not going to have the same financial rewards and he has to make his peace with this.

I too am baffled that two people who have enough perceived intelligence to earn 70k between them can't work out that they can afford a child because the one thing that makes London financially difficult is the cost of housing, which they don't have.

No, you don't earn a lot, for London, but you live rent free.

It must be a boast thread because nobody could really be that dim, surely.

You say you've talked over the financial aspects a fair bit already, but how have you approached it? Maybe it would be worth trying to do some hypothetical "imagine ourselves with 2 children about to start uni, what are our lives like?, "imagine ourselves with 2 children at senior school" etc. Jot down how you both imagine things being, and think about both what the financial requirements at that stage might be, and where you are likely to be living.

With that to hand, try to identify the main "crunch" points financially, and think about how your savings would be used to enable the things you would want. That might make it easier to work out how much savings will cover the early years or how much you want to protect for later on.

Don't completely rule out grandparental help for senior school fees if that becomes relevant or appropriate, one, it's a fair way off and two, the level of such fees is such that an awful lot of children for whom private education might be appropriate will only get it with bursary support. It's not reasonable to think that accepting a bursary implies you are poor / "should" have been earning more or whatever. [had this discussion in our house recently as even with a large scholarship we will still be accepting a bursary for our daughter next year; and will need it to go up when her brother goes to senior school. Our pre-children savings have been dipped into to cover fees for several years now, but are just about holding up]

Bran - we absolutely did factor in the cost of private education for two children (£55,000 combined total per year) before we decided when to have them. It was a priority for us. It's not a small sum of money and needs planning for.

Ha Ha, this is a joke obiously.
children cost next to nothing it's your lifestyle choice when you have them that can be expensive.
We have raised 3 and managed a good standard of living from a very low wage and top ups.
So you are more than 50k up on us before you start. Your dh is worrying because either his view of finance is so skewed, or he doesn't want children.

£55,000 per year combined total to send two children to private school?!! Is that really how much private education costs these days?!!

Sapph1r3, are you telling me that this was the main factor in your decision in having children? If you could not afford to do so that you would have chosen not to have/wait longer to have children (as seems to be the only factor in holding back the op and her husband)? In my opinion that's quite a sad and elitist attitude to have, that it's not worth having children unless you can put them in private school. Don't get me wrong, of course we all want the best for our children, provide them the best we can, but to put off having kids because not being super duper rich enough the poor sods might have to suffer a non-private school is ridiculous in my opinion.

NewLife
So you are more than 50k up on us before you start
Does that mean you have 3 children in London with £20,000 a year?

I would not think it that be possible to do without state/family assistance especially if you are are not mortgage or rent free.

to put off having kids because not being super duper rich enough the poor sods might have to suffer a non-private school is ridiculous in my opinion.

Agree. Sadly this attitude is not uncommon. It's mad IMO.

I knew this would be a ridiculous thread before I even opened it

I asked other people who have a direct experience raising children if there was something I was missing

And did you really expect someone to pop up so say, yes, you've not thought of x which will definitely mean you can't afford a child in your situation?

If your DH aspires to a certain lifestyle, which he has no possibility of affording in his current role without the bank of mum and dad then you are never going to bridge this gap. Asking daft questions about if £70k is enough to raise a child when you don't even pay rent or a mortgage isn't what you should be asking.