'Ladies first'

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A male colleague said this to a female colleague today and I instinctively bristled.

FC: On you go
MC: No, no, you go. Ladies first. [stands back, FC passes]

Me (internal monologue) - errrr, aaaahhhhhh.

MC is generally lovely, FC was oblivious and thinking about other stuff. Neither even noticed the exchange. AIBU for being a bit bothered?

7 pages!

Good job we are all different. ;)

Well we certainly are different. Some of us are happy to be 'looked after', to play the damsel in distress, to get our sense of validation from mens appreciation of our physical appearance, or to be treated like princesses (ie. decorative, precious but otherwise utterly useless). And then some of us aren't.

I don't think its a good job we are different though. I think every single woman who bats her eyelashes to get a man to help her park her car, every woman who simpers in response to a wolf whistle, is making it just a tiny bit harder for my DD to be taken seriously as a whole human being in the future.

It will break my heart when she is an adult in 15 years time, and the gender pay gap STILL exists and it is STILL harder for women to make it in science and technology jobs because people STILL subconsciously think 'ladies' need looking after and shouldn't do maths in case their poor lady brains over heat.

Yanbu I find it sexist. I wouldn't be pissed, I'd just roll my eyes though as its really No big deal.

I hate all that old school sexist unequal stuff though. Guys paying. Guys making the first move etc.

Poor bloke. If it was a man he probably would have done the same and said 'after you mate'.

Seven pages because he held the door open for someone.

"it is STILL harder for women to make it in science and technology jobs because people STILL subconsciously think 'ladies' need looking after and shouldn't do maths in case their poor lady brains over heat."
Do you have a STEM job yourself Icebeing? I started studying and working over 15 years ago now. I've worked with lots of women over the years and we've never been treated like that. Tbh, I think it's swung slightly the other way and sometimes women are being chosen over men because there are fewer of them in STEM jobs and they're trying to balance it out. I don't think this is fair. I think the best person for the job should be hired, regardless of their sex.

Ice, I certainly agree with your comment. Women have a long way to go. If it's any comfort my daughter had the biggest bonus last year in her group (City lawyer) as she's presumably a lot better than all the men. We are getting there. We are pushing for higher pay. We are not allowing sexism. In high paid jobs women still are not doing well. They are in 20% of positions of power. I gave a course law week. Every delegate was female (lawyers) and I wasn't pleased because they were all in house (relatively lower paid) lawyers. Men are staying int he law firms and earning £3--k - £2m a year and loads of women are getting out for shorter hours and much lower pay employed as lawyers in companies. It is a new trend and I don't like it at all. Now it's certainly better that 100% of those "in house " lawyers were female rather than 0% - much better than when their only chances were to be a secretary to a male lawyer but we have a long way to go to get women into those jobs with high pay to the same extent men have.

Like many women I will usually object if there is sexism even casually if it's appropriate. I spend a lot of time carrying very heavy loads so tend to have the stronger arm muscles of most people in a group even some men so the idea someone might open a door is ludicrious. I think in those situations I would tend to smile, make a joke of it but get some small comment in that he couldn't take exception to that made it clear it was everyday sexism to do that. That man will be facing women every day who are conditioned to like that kind of thing, the simpering flirting type whose husbands never let them lift a finger in terms of heavy weights at home. Those men - our sons and brothers have to live in a world where they risk being wrong - don't help and they get castigated, help and they get flamed.

"made it clear it was everyday sexism to do that. "

I think it's good manners to open a door for someone. The men I work with open doors for other men as well.

Re women wanting shorter hours. What is the problem if that is what they want. Many women want to spend more time with their families. I think there is an issue in that many men feel that they can't reduce hours/take pay cuts when they have a family. I think raising children needs to be valued more in society. Why should someone's success be judged by their position in a company and their salary?

YANBU

Politeness is wonderful, and there should be more in the world.
"Ladies first" is antiquated.
Let's all use "after you"

libertygirl I love the sound of your DH, please tell him he must carry on with his wonderful behaviour because most people (women and men) will appreciate it in the honest and respectful way that it is meant. I totally agree, some people read too much into these things and take themselves far too seriously. It's all in the way it is done. I open doors for everyone and have taught my daughters to do the same and I simply say, "After you."

DD (7) is learning about the Victorians. We were talking this morning and she just happened to say to "ladies first" when talking about a friend (boy) and herself. She thinks ladies first is great as it is of benefit to her and has no concept of inequality between the sexes. I hope it stays that way . She was surprised a woman could be in the army as she wasn't aware ladies could fight and I set her straight - we already had the same conversation yonks ago and she forgot. DH and I breaking down m/f inequality in our own way with the next generation.

""a jokey wolf whistle ""

What that says is that he considers it his right to publicly physically critique you. He's probably the same arsehole who will shout insults at fat women etc.

""holds doors open, says ladies first, pulls out chairs, stands at the back in lifts and apologises to women if he swears.
He says he does this because he respects women and holds them in high regard""

I and the Women that I know, including my DDs would rather just be regarded as equal, valid Human Beings. We would like to be able to swear (and be sworn in front of) without judgement and the same applies to sexual/parenting behaviour.

Holding a Woman 'in high regard' sets them apart from men, as though, we are different in fundamental ways, not just physically.

Men used to open doors for his companion to show that she had his permission to enter an establishment, we needed a man to 'open a door' for us to go to leisure places/pubs without a chaperone.

'Gentlemen' only treated woman who were at, or above the social standing as they were, like that. They rape their black slaves, or beat their scullery maids, for not working hard enough for 14 hours.

I will hold the door open for anyone and usually just say "after you" to avoid anyone getting offended I think it's a sign of respect that most people would do regardless of sex and not just usually reserved for females anymore, but your "ladies first" colleague (the poor guy) obviously presumed he was being very polive and chivalrous! Most men are raised to be polite to women and that's what he was doing I get the door held open for me at work and can honestly say it doesn't make me feel any less of a strong independent woman

Although of course we are raising our children to be polite to everyone what I meant was, the whole opening car doors, pulling chairs out etc for women are seen as things we teach boys to do.

Men who insist on walking on the side of the pavement closest to the road is another one. It's amusing to me rather than putting me in a froth of rage as I out earn all these men anyway but it's another vestige of a time from the old days when streets were full of sewage ditches and horse drawn carriages and men protected women from that as women were in burka like long skirts they could hardly walk in.

So noone here has ever heard a man, even on telly or whatever, say (paraphrased)
"women want it all these days, doors held open/help with stuff and they want equal pay/rights. Feminism is all about women being better than men"?

Money seems to be a very important thing to you user.

Oh my days. I have four sons and threads like this depress me. What does the female population want from men? They hold doors for women, the women bristle. The use of the word 'lady' 'pisses me off', etc. etc. Yet if a man failed to hold the door, or used a word different from lady then someone else would complain. The bottom line is that this poor man was trying to be polite. He was displaying courtesy, respect and good manners as 95% of the male population (my sons included) have been taught. If his intention had been to be condescending and sexist then fair enough, go to town, but it wasn't. Poor man.

No one is saying that it's not right to be polite and hold open doors, this is what we should teach, not that women need men to open doors for them, the sex of the person should be irrelevant.

Can I clarify what "holding the door open" actually means?

Is it when you walk through an automatic closing door, glance behind, notice someone behind you, and hold the door with your hand until their hand replaces yours?

Or is it literally standing outside holding a door for someone else to pass through first?

I do the former every single time, regardless of the gender of the person behind me. The latter is a bit weird; on a wet pavement outside Smiths is hardly the place to demonstrate that you're King Gallantry.

And of course, anyone who walks through without saying thank you gets a cheery, sarcastic, "you're welcome".

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow

Yes, you're pretty much right but those "radfems" won't let it get in the way of a good argument.

Anyone who finds chivalry offensive is a bit screwy, IMO. I teach both my boys to be chivalrous. At the same time, my 5 year old gave his seat up on the train to an old man without being asked. Chivalry and "feminism" arent mutually exclusive.

OP - very unreasonable.

Courteous behaviour that requires zero overthinking, analysis or door tango in order to make a point no-one else gets or realises at the very moment when you should just stop faffing and just walk through the bloody door already!

^
Exactly