To think if you want to get rid of David Cameron, vote Leave.

[NotnowNigel]

Ken Clarke has said that "David Cameron won't last 30 seconds if the country votes leave".

That will plunge the Tories into civil war in the party. George will probably take over et voila!

George will never win an election. He has all the charisma of a blocked sink.

really hate...

Manhattan Fantastic NN by the way. I disagree. Using the referendum as an opportunity to oust Cameron is incredibly short sighted. Not only has he said he's not running for another term but the In/Out question is about a whole lot more than just who's living in number 10.

I don't trust the Tories one iota and Cameron and his fellow crooks have been known to backtrack and obfuscate, so even if we don't take his word that he'd stand down it doesn't mean that we won't consequently end up with another Tory government - regardless of who is at the helm. The Tories without EU restrictions would dramatically change this country, it'd be something I refer to as the Bullingdon club on acid.

FirstwetakeManhatten. The Socialist worker people are running around central London shouting abuse too. Definitely makes us all realise we are wrong about everything and you are right.

The Socialist worker people are running around central London shouting abuse too. Definitely makes us all realise we are wrong about everything and you are right

Eh? What am I right about?

I disagree. Using the referendum as an opportunity to oust Cameron is incredibly short sighted

We're not in disagreement. I said 'I won't be among them', I just made the point that there's a lot of strong feeling that the Tories should address. To ignore the many voters that will vote purely to harm Cameron is short sighted to me. The In campaign should be trying to reach those voters, not writing them off as morons.

(thanks for NN comment are you a fan?)

DC is one of the more benign Tories.
The EU issue is bigger than a DC popularity vote.

DC is one of the more benign Tories

He's really not. But the fact that people believe that is a triumph of PR.

Obviously, in my opinion.

Manhattan Apologies, I didn't understand your comment "I won't be among them" as that you wouldn't be among that group of voters. Sorry. Yes we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

As it stands I'm personally undecided on how I'll vote in the referendum, oddly enough I'm half from a continental European country and have worked for the European Commission so you'd think my colours are already nailed to the mast but I'm still not sure and whilst I don't want to dither, I do feel June is approaching too quickly before we've hashed out the consequences of each decision. I'd get shot of Cameron in a heartbeat but I do think that the government and the referendum are two separate issues which should not be conflated - as the premise of this thread has suggested.

oddly enough I'm half from a continental European country and have worked for the European Commission so you'd think my colours are already nailed to the mast but I'm still not sure and whilst I don't want to dither

Loads of people with European roots, family are voting leave.

Cameron is going anyway. The EU vote has really serious long term consequences. To vote "leave" just to get rid of Dave would be half Witter.

Witted

I hate Dodgy Dave as much as the next person but leaving the EU to get rid of him would be like burning your house down because you don't like the curtains.

Staying in the EU is the first time I've agreed with Cameron about anything. I'm not totally convinced he's completely honest about his stance on this. He's not totally honest about lots of things. I smell manipulation.

Being out of Europe with George or Boris running the country, I can't image a much more terrifying scenario.

I'm no fan of David Cameron but I'm not going to cut my nose off to spite my face.

Slave I know that, hence my indecision.

Slave In fact my Greek ExH wanted Greece to default to the point that they'd be pushed to leave. Under the original guidelines they shouldn't have been a member at all. I know some people who are going to vote to leave just to see what will happen as there aren't guidelines about this sort of thing in EU law.

For all those who dont trust the tories - why on earth do you think you can trust another layer of distant but all powerful government?

Doesn't it worry you that the EU could be largely far right in a few years - seeing as that's the up and coming mood of Europe?

If it doesn't - are you happy being governed by Brussels? Do you want a united states of Europe?

Doesnt the current disaffection of Europe worry you?

We can talk trade deals and everything else till we are blue but people in the EU are angry, violence is breaking out frequently, and the people of the EU are going to be under terrific pressure as the weather gets warmer and more Migrants come from Libya and elsewhere.

In all this - if there is another terrorist attack its going to be chaos.

slave do you ever visit other european countries? The picture of turmoil and violence that you paint is very far from the everyday reality.

The rise of the far right is an issue - but that is true in the UK too.

I'd rather be in most of Europe than in the UK under the Tories.

Champagne socialist? Corbyn?

Shurely autocorrect for 'camping socialist'?

Slave my 17 year old was telling me if a discussion at school about how the right wing parties are rising significantly across Europe. Interesting.

Doesn't it worry you that the EU could be largely far right in a few years

Yes, who knows what evil a future EU president we get no vote to elect could cause.

I agree IamSlave.

We can vote for a different government in Westminster, but we can't vote out the EU Commission, or any of the MEPs from the 27 other member states in the EU.

David Cameron hasn't managed to reform the EU, and if we have so little influence "to stay and change things" we are better off out. We have to vote on the EU as it is, not what we wish it was.

The rise of the "right wing" across Europe is really a bit of a misnomer - many of these parties are extreme nationalist parties, not traditional RW parties. The French national front is very interventionist in its policies - it is not a free market capitalist party at all. It's socially far right but economically would I think be considered leftwing on many counts. It is in favour of a big state.

The rise of the far right is an issue - but that is true in the UK too.

If we vote "leave" then perhaps fewer people would support UKIP.

Why would anyone think it was a good idea that we could vote out MEPs who represent other countries?

People in the UK can only vote in one constituency - you can't vote out an MP in a neighbouring constituency even if s/he is utterly incompetent. It's up to local voters, and what's more, first past the post system makes it surprisingly difficult to unseat bad MPs.

Much of the "received wisdom" about how European institutions work is basically just ignorance.