to not want him there

[ginghamknickers]

I am part of an Nct group who meet approx every two weeks. Our dc are all around 4 months old and most of us are still breastfeeding undecided if we ever want to have sex again dealing with body issues etc which we like to discuss. One of the girls is going back to work and her husband is taking over her parental leave. She's asked if he can come to the meetings instead of her. No one has said no but I know a few of the girls don't like him me included and to be honest he's just a bit of a twat. A well meaning twat, but still a twat. I don't really want to go if he's there, it feels like someone has invaded our safe place. He's been once with her and I couldn't wait for him to leave. I will most probably avoid the meetings if he ends up going all the time which is a shame as they are a nice bunch but it's just not the same. AIBU to not want him there and think she's a bit cheeky for asking for him to join and should I/can I say anything?

It comes down to whether it's a group of friends or a parenting support group. The OP sees it as friends but as others have pointed out, it's not really, not yet. The way it worked at ours was the group leader asked if anyone would volunteer to host first and then the primary carer for each child came to that meet up and we went from there, weekly in our case. No one was excluded. I think it's friends if you're still all going after a year, before that it's an extension of the classes, without the class leader there. It's tough for these artificial groups as people make different work choices, exhibit different parenting styles, their kids may clash, they have subsequent children at different points and naturally move away from the obvious early day conversations about recovery, weaning, colic etc. I think you will only make it through those changes to be proper friends if you as a group are inclusive, forgiving, flexible and generous in spirit to each other. For you guys I think that means welcoming the husband in. If he finds he can't fit and drifts away, so be it. It would be kind anyway to arrange your meetings so the mother can come along to see you sometimes.

So OP - can you clarify - is this a proper friendship group, a subset of people who got on well from some kind of NCT social or is it the usual inclusive follow on from the classes?

So if I arange a meet up for coffee with a small handful of my friends who just so happen to be friends because we all met originally at an organised event, do I have to be aware that one day none of them will show up and will just send their husbands instead?

sliver

She has already said its not a formal organised thing it's just a small group of people who are making their own private arangements

We were in this exact same situation when my first son was little. Nice mum went back to work, twatty dad wanted to come along to our meet ups. We said yes after behind the scenes negotiations because we realised that it was more about her wanting to still feel part of the group, and her not wanting her little boy to miss out, than her husband actually wanting to come. He came to one meeting before he realised that talk of which baby was sitting up, which was eating the most solids, which was sleeping through etc was not his cup of tea. We're not as boring now, five years on, but he never came back. We still see his lovely wife regularly, and him sometimes.

Can you share some example of makes him a twat or a misogynist?

I'm curious to why his wife would want him to join your particular group if all she's been bitching about him to you. If it's just a matter of him telling some jokes you don't find funny or sexist, maybe he was just trying to break the ice while feeling socially awkward.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one. I'm thinking here is a man who wants to do his share of staying at home with the baby, so he can't be all that sexist. Also, most baby groups are very focused on women and imo as soon as a man shows up he's getting the cold shoulder. He could also learn a thing or two from your group of friends if you say that some had traumatic birth experiences. My husband was there at our son's emcs and I know it was a rough ride for him too as a "spectator" worrying about his wife and child.
On the other hand if he's really an arse, then maybe just inviting him to more open play date type settings might be a good option and then setting up something for a week night or a weekend to catch up with the mum.

My goodness has nobody read the op or her posts, this is not a formal group, but a meet up of female friends, this man is not a friend, and will upset the dynamics of the group. At that age, the babies don't get much out of the group, its more for the women to talk about their birth, etc.

I get it. I have a similar group of friends (all met at our NCT and the entire group has stayed together). We do things as a group and sometimes with husbands on weekends, but can't imagine any of the husbands wanting to join us during the week without their wives! BUT, you can't say no, just see how it goes. Like PP have said, he may not enjoy the get togethers and decline further invites.
I understand where you're coming from, even though you've got a roasting from some on here!

Fascinating to see so many acknowledge that women can be sexist twats too.

Of course they can. But my husband goes to a weekly meet up with friends at the moment that I don't. When his hours change in a few weeks he won't go any more, doesn't mean he can sub me in to collect the gossip for him!

Its not sexist, its a bunch of female friends meeting to talk about blooming childbirth and torn fanjos fgs! I can't imagine the husband would want to be involved in that, it can get quite personal.

OP, no, it's not U to not want to entertain your friend's husband.

Outside MN it's perfectly acceptable to have a group of friends and socialise with them, without them sending replacements.

Whoever brought up adoptive parents is being fucking ridiculous. But that's AIBU these days, innit?

Let the woman's dh make his own social plans or even walk about pushing the pram its not all isolation if you arent sat in groups gassing.

It can be. Even I found most baby classes quite cliquey - not the jolly way to meet people I'd been led to believe - and DH said if it hadn't been for members of our NCT group who were at some of those classes he would have felt a total pariah.

But as I said the regular meet ups of our NCT cohort (informally organised and hosted by each of us but certainly not excluding any of the group because they hadn't become close friends) were nice enough to treat him like a parent from the group who was just as important and in just as much need of relatively frequent get togethers with people at the same stage of parenting.

That said, I suspect most of us would have been dead of boredom if all we were talking about five or six months on was our stitches, our birth stories or the state of our vaginas. And DH, being the primary caregiver at that point, had just as much of an interest in discussing other aspects of baby care and development. He didn't always go along (like most folk) but he enjoyed the times he did.

But I'm not a great believer in the 'men and women can't be friends' thing which seems to have some currency on Mumsnet.

I think the main difference for me is - this isn't a friendship group that has come together naturally over time and become close. That's the social space of the person who formed the friendship.

This is an artificially formed group of half a dozen people based on the time and place they gave birth and the payment of money to the NCT. It's been meeting for quite a short period of time and still retains a degree of its artificiality - regular meet up scheduled, regular format, all original (female) participants always invited. That's the problem with treating it like a normal friendship group in my mind.

It may well become one - mine did! - but four months it, it's a little more formal than that.

I'm thinking here is a man who wants to do his share of staying at home with the baby, so he can't be all that sexist.

Did you miss the post where the OP said this guy wants to take parental leave because he thinks 'sitting at home with the baby will be a nice break from work'?

I think YANBU to not want him there OP. I suggest you let him come though. I think one of the following will happen:

A) He will turn out not to be a sexist twat, will grow on you all and you will have done a kind thing by including him
B) He will turn out to be a sexist twat, will be horrified by the general conversation and won't come back a second time.

Either way, harmony is restored and this way you have at least given him a chance.

If it's a private group of friends then of course that is different from public groups. However, OP has only met the guy once, and first impressions can be misleading especially if that impression is built up second hand.

Being a SAHD, even just for a few weeks of swapped leave, can be incredibly isolating, more so than for women in some respects. New mothers have an almost natural support network made up of other mums going through the same process. That just doesn't exist for men, and such is the cliquey nature of baby groups the same kid that is welcome with open arms when they attend with their mothers are barely acknowledged when they turn up with their dad. It's all very well encouraging dads to share leave and get as involved as they should, but certain attitudes need to change about the often closed-off nature of support networks for new parents.

I usually see quite the opersit thing with dads and babies.

Unless the group is of a nature where it's a female only specific issue that's usually addressed or talked about for some reason woman flock around dads out and about by themselves.

Ive seen women stood around in groups gossiping quite harshly about something another mum did with her baby but when the sole man in the area did the same thing they were charm overload personified. Ive routinely seen women almost fall over themselves to assist lone men out and about with babies or very small children, and almost every single one of the single dads I know quite openly acknowledge that they are treated like hero's by the female parents they come into contact with despite a couple of them being piss poor (cp intervention type piss poor) parents.

Kid, the op said she has met him on lots of occasions

I don't know, I've seen plenty of MN threads in the past say that there's no way men and women can truly be platonic friends. It's depressing.

But as I've said repeatedly, I think there are differences between the group of mates you've described and an early-stages regular meet up of an NCT cohort. And clearly my NCT lot felt the same, or DH would have been out on his lonesome.

YANBU, I'm part of a group of mums that met through NCT course when all expecting our 2nd child. Not met any of the hubby's and we haven't really talked about them either. But if this happened In my group I'd still feel awkward as the mums are each other's friends and it's kind of hard to make friends with someone that has not happened naturally. I'm sure a male wouldn't even find what us mums talk about interesting anyway. If the group started off being like this I suppose wouldn't be as bad but with him being only male I I'd feel we couldn't talk as openly.
Op has come on here for support and advice and most of the responses are very defensive towards her. She just had a baby 4 months ago so just cut her some slack please rather than having a go at her x

This is an NCT group, not a mothers only meeting. Sounds like sex discrimination to me, if you do not like men set your own group up called women only sex group talk.

Some significant female group thing I have been involved in have changed dynamic rapidly after the inclusion of a man/men. The exercise type groups continued strong, the more talk centred groups disbanded.

Yanbu

I think if you're using the NCT umbrella for your meetings ie meeting in NCT paid for venue and calling it NCT it's hard to exclude him. You could break away from the NCT thing and buy your own coffee and just meet in each others houses and be a proper friendship group. Then you can invite who you want. If you already do the latter then you could just say "no we're a group of friends meeting up and don't want extra people."

FFS, why don't people RTFFT ! !

Op has explained over & over again that it is exactly that kind of friendship group, meeting in each other's houses etc.