To think that shops and pubs are no place for dogs?

[Misssss]

We went to the pub for dinner last night. It is a naice pub with a good menu. When we walked in at about 7.30pm there was a cacophony of barking because at least four dogs, owned by different people, had decided to "play," with each other.

This afternoon we were shopping at a little retail park. Lots of little handbag type dogs were being paraded round. One woman even let her two dogs walk all over the rugs on display.

Aibu to think that they shouldn't be there? Why can't the dogs be left at home. Obviously these weren't guide dogs, just pets.

They are john, humans are the pack.

anthony apols, I thought you meant calling out when the dog wasn't near. You should care what people think though, because they are more likely to listen if they think you are being reasonable and polite. Not to mention it does horseriders no favours when a small minority perpetuate the myth they are entitled. Which you should understand given you are judging all dog owners based on the bad minority.

john exactly. Personally I class an otherwise competent rider/ schooled horse that kicks at dogs as 'shit happens'. But I also class an otherwise competent dog handler/ well trained dog that does something unexpected as 'shit happens' too. Same rule for both imo.

They are john, humans are the pack.

You do know that's bullshit, don't you? And goes against all now accepted theories of dog socialisation/training?

Lurked, humans are absolutely not the pack. Dogs know we are not dogs. They are not stupid. Pack theory was debunked years ago.

Well, some children/adults are worse than animals, behaviourally. So, no. I don't think it's an odd thing to say.

Some badgers are worse than dogs too. Some step-ladders are also worse than dogs. Some washing machines are worse than dogs. However, it is entirely irrelevant to suddenly start talking about any of those things on a thread about dogs, unless you think that the examples you give equate to dogs in some way. From the posts you have made, therefore, I can only assume that you think that children are equivalent to dogs which seems to me erroneous.

Surely children need to be trained, just as an animal would? And any untrained animal is a pain to be around, be it a human animal, or a dog/horse/whatever?

Of course children don't need to be trained! They need to be parented - there is a massive massive difference. When you are a parent, you are not just feeding and watering and telling them to stop doing things that will get them killed/killing other people. You are also listening, you are emotionally present, you are doing everything you can to meet their emotional and social needs, and at the same time equipping them with the tools to manage their own emotional and social well-being. You are advising on dealing with school, friendships, romantic relationships, finances, clothing, all of the day-to-day slights and triumphs that people encounter, the big things, the little things ... you are teaching them about life and doing your level best to turn them into hopefully happy and functioning adults.

This life-long process, with all of its twists and turns, all of the bumps and peaks and troughs along the way, some of which you can control but many of which you just have to equip them to deal with, is in no way comparable to having ownership of a dog.

Is that a bit like a friend got his dog put down because he couldn't train it, is the same person who can't train their DD not to attack other children?

I didn't say they think we are dogs. But they aren't lone animals, and they follow group instincts. And we still train them, and interact with them based on body language that stems from pack interactions and behavior. And they still interact with each other as pack animals.

They might be so watered down from wolves that wolf pack behavior is largely negligible, but that doesn't mean they are no longer pack animals. Hounds, of the hunt pack variety rather than the crufts type, are also a long way from wolves and most definitely dogs. And yet most definitely interact as a pack. As will any group of domestic dogs in the right circumstances.

God knows, Scaredycat. There do seem to be people on here - adult, presumably sentient beings, who can vote and work and everything - who think it is.

When you have a child, a part of you is literally out in the world for their lifespan, separate from you but still inextricably linked and thus capable of causing you to experience not only great joy but great pain also. To compare this with owning a dog misses the point by such a great distance that it verges on the ludicrous and grotesque.

Yes! Yes, Cruikshank. You got me! I think children are just like dogs. I get confused at times being both a mother and dog owner. Now, one thing I'm absolutely sure of is this....I'd rather sit next to a dog in my local pub, than you. Some humans leave much to be desired and I think you might be one of those.

Good night.

Thanks, cruickshank that's given me the laugh I need to go to bed on. Sounds like you're quoting from the "book of complete parenting with rose coloured glasses"
Look at all those lovely parents out there - one child a week is killed in Britain by their loving family - according to the Independent in 2009. The Nspcc report for 2014's not much better. Good night!

Cruikshank, I think you have just perfectly highlighted the difference between non-dog owners (and some superficial dog owners) and mindful dog owners. Because everything you have said is how I feel about having responsibility for a dog.

It is my responsibility to look after my dog physically, emotionally, socially. It's so not just about feeding them and walking them and teaching them to sit. I want to develop a life long bond with my dog and that will take years of training, development, stimulation etc. It is, as you say, a lifelong ongoing process which will benefit us both.

I didn't think dogs were allowed in shops? (Except guide dogs)

As for dogs in Pubs - some allow dogs on leads, some allow off lead, some do not allow dogs at all.

People who dislike dogs don't have to give their custom to dog friendly pubs. Their choice. I won't invade their dog free pub with my dog - in return i'd expect them to keep out of the pubs we go to, or come in but keep the lemon sucking face off, and minimum tutting.

Lurked, the original pack theory study was based on captive non-familial groups of wolves who operate in a completely different way to wild groups of wolves who are based on family units. The findings of that original study, on which pack theory is based, cannot be compared to domestic dogs. Humans are not viewed by the dog as their pack.

I have to say (and don't judge me) I find the sort of comment that someone prefers dogs to humans really irritating. I know someone who continually says this and it's ridiculous. She is very close to her parents so it's hardly true is it... of course you don't prefer cats and dogs to your Mum and Dad, siblings, children etc. Lots of people say it don't they...

It's usually said to put down someone who either doesn't have a pet (me) or who professes to not liking dogs (not me).

I'm with Cruikshank here. So many people talk crazy about their dogs and yet will leave them on their own for the whole day. Oh I love my dog! But not enough to see to their emotional needs for 8 hours a day. This is why although I am not a massive dog lover I would like to see more allowance for dogs in shops. I hate seeing them stuck in cars or them barking away at home.

8 hours a day left alone is too long. I don't agree with that. Maybe they get a dog walker in?
Even that's not great imho though as dogs need company. And as for having a tiny puppy stay home alone all day that shouldn't be allowed!

cruikshank pops up on all the dog threads with a variety of reductio ad absurdum arguments. Personally I couldn't be bothered expending so much intellectual energy on something I disliked so much, but each to their own.

BMW6 dogs are allowed in some shops at the discretion of the shop owner - obviously it tends not to be food shops or large chains. I've been invited into various shops with PageDog a few times when I've been waiting outside with him for the person who I was with at the time to finish their browsing. I'm always grateful to those who do although I'd never expect it as a right. There's no way I'd tie him up outside a shop as dog thefts are on the increase. We take him on holiday with us and most pet-friendly holiday cottages stipulate that the dog mustn't be left alone in the property, which is completely reasonable, so when we go out for the day he comes with us (which is kind of the point of holidaying with him anyway!) so we're always on the lookout for pubs that allow dogs into the beer garden or bar area.

In general I think unless someone is phobic, most people don't notice well-behaved dogs. It's the annoying out-of-control or over-indulged ones that draw attention to themselves, and believe me they irritate us responsible dog owners just as much as they do non-dog-lovers, because they spoil it for us too.

I love - and own - dogs, but I don't want my relaxing lunch in a nice pub spoiled by dogs yapping, fighting, begging or generally being a nuisance any more than you do, which is why I put so much damned effort into training and socialising all the successive PageDogs until they're well-behaved members of canine society who can be trusted to behave themselves in public.

A great divide between dog and non-dog people.

Frankly, as a dog lover, I wouldn't mind if a dog was serving in a pub. Do dog haters honestly imagine that the kitchen/waiting staff are always scrupulously clean? A dog walks on the ground, so do our shoes. A dog sniffs (often inappropriately!) - but can you be quite sure what the staff have/haven't been up to five minutes before putting their hands in your salad? A while ago I saw a tv programme on public health inspectors, and they visited a takeaway where there was no loo nor washbasin . The inspector said her mind just couldn't go there...

I went in a pub recently with dog and it was billed as "Most dog friendly pub in X National Park" - on the sign outside. At next table were a sour-faced couple who kept glaring at dog dozing under the table and making loud passive aggressive comments in our direction about hygiene. I couldn't understand why they were eating in such a dog friendly place. I wouldn't choose to go in KidsBarn or whatever and complain about toddlers!

Ultimately the behaviour of the dog is down to the owner. If you can be bothered to train your dog properly then by all means bring them out. If you can't, then you're a twat who shouldn't have a dog stay at home.

john I don't know if we're perhaps talking at cross purposes, as you seem to think I'm basing my opinion on studies of captive wolves, which I'm not. Or are you suggesting dogs operate as loners?

Pack theory is based on studies with captive wolves. It's what the whole thing is (erroneously) based on. And no I don't think dogs are loners but you said humans are the dogs pack which they are not (at least based on everything I've learned).

JohnCusacksWife is spot on. Here is an extract from an article published in Time magazine in 2010 on the subject:

"The debate [about pack theory in dogs and dog training] has its roots in 1940s studies of captive wolves gathered from various places that, when forced to live together, naturally competed for status. Acclaimed animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel dubbed the male and female who won out the alpha pair. As it turns out, this research was based on a faulty premise: wolves in the wild, says L. David Mech, founder of the Minnesota-based International Wolf Center, actually live in nuclear families, not randomly assembled units, in which the mother and father are the pack leaders and their offspring's status is based on birth order. Mech, who used to ascribe to alpha-wolf theory but has reversed course in recent years, says the pack's hierarchy does not involve anyone fighting to the top of the group, because just like in a human family, the youngsters naturally follow their parents' lead."

Mech himself is on record as saying he consistently pleads with his publisher to stop reprinting his book ("The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,") because while much of it is still valid, important elements - particularly that relating to pack theory - are, in his own words "outdated".

Every dog trainer/behaviourist who uses pack theory, 'alpha dog' or dominance techniques is basing their methodology on this outdated, flawed research which is so at odds with the reality of dog behaviour that in certain circumstances it can make whichever issue which has required the use of a trainer worse and result in turning an unhappy-but-fixable dog into a dangerous dog.

Many years ago, in Paris, I was in a small deli, with plates of sliced meat open in the chiller. No covering. A lady came inn with a dog under her arm, and proceeded to inspect the meat while the dog was panting all over them.

I was glad I was just in there for .