To think that shops and pubs are no place for dogs?

[Misssss]

We went to the pub for dinner last night. It is a naice pub with a good menu. When we walked in at about 7.30pm there was a cacophony of barking because at least four dogs, owned by different people, had decided to "play," with each other.

This afternoon we were shopping at a little retail park. Lots of little handbag type dogs were being paraded round. One woman even let her two dogs walk all over the rugs on display.

Aibu to think that they shouldn't be there? Why can't the dogs be left at home. Obviously these weren't guide dogs, just pets.

[parmalilac]

YANBU. Dogs shouldn't be allowed in places which sell or serve food. Don't these places have to follow certain hygiene rules and regulations? Clothes shops etc, up to the owner I suppose.

[PageStillNotFound404]

Don't these places have to follow certain hygiene rules and regulations?

In the food preparation and storage areas, certainly. But I'm not aware of any pub or similar that lets dogs into their kitchen.

[Lurkedforever1]

We are indeed talking at cross purposes. Nowhere did I mention anything about dominance theories or dodgy training. You've simply leaped to the conclusion I must be, because I mentioned the word pack. My mistake, I assumed anyone discussing dog behavior and pack instincts would respond from the assumption nobody believes the old crap from captive wolves. And therefore understand what I'm actually saying. Rather than assuming I'm ignorant and need the differences between actual wolf pack mentality and some outdated research pointing out to me.

[PageStillNotFound404]

But dogs are not true pack animals. Left to their own devices they form loose, fluctuating social bonds and may be drawn together temporarily by a food source or a bitch in heat, but on a long-term basis they don't operate in anything approaching a formal pack. Research carried out on the huge stray dog population of Romania demonstrated that. So to refer to domestic dogs in the context of pack behaviour is a red herring, and does indicate or at least suggest that you're not completely up to date with the latest theories of canine behavioural research. Which is fine - unless you're a trainer/behaviourist, there's no need to be - but does your point somewhat irrelevant.

[PageStillNotFound404]

does make your point

[JohnCusacksWife]

Lurked, but you stated that humans are viewed as the dogs pack. And that's just wrong. The dog does not think that.

[FurryDogMother]

I don't think we need to change anything in our society - some places allow dogs, others don't. People who don't like dogs can go to the places where they're not allowed, and vice versa. The only time I've found myself in an altercation with a dog-hater was in a wood in the middle of nowhere (a place I'd walked the dogs every day for 4 or 5 years), where a man suddenly started screaming at me to put my dogs on leads - he was about 50 yards away from us, and the dogs hadn't taken a blind bit of notice of him. So I did, and asked him to kindly stop waving his stick around, as it would either scare the dogs, or make them think he wanted to play. There's no accounting for phobias, I suppose - I'd probably make a huge fuss if I came across someone in a pub (or elsewhere) with their pet tarantula

[zeezeek]

I have had dogs all my life ( nearly 50 years) and each and every one had their own personality quirks. Dogs are not some kind of brainless blob, they are intelligent sentient creatures with needs and feelings of their own. Anyone who thinks that all you need to do with a dog is train it to sit and not attack humans knows fuck all about them.

And whilst we may not parent our dogs like our children, good dog owners treat them with love and understanding and respond to their emotional needs as well as training them how to socialise. Like children they need guidance.

[Lurkedforever1]

Again, talking at cross purposes.
page it's absolutely fine for you to assume I need informing on how dogs interact with each other. However I have enough experience to class that in the 'blindingly obvious, can't remember ever not knowing that group'. But nothing wrong with being in the group that assumes they are educating others with what they think is a knowledgable insight.

john perhaps to you pack theory means some dodgy research on captive wolves. But to me, a pack animal is one that can and does operate and interact as part of a group, and doesn't have it's emotional needs fully met living in isolation. Hence why a pet dog needs us, it's human pack, to satisfy it's emotional needs for company etc.

[PageStillNotFound404]

But to me, a pack animal is one that can and does operate and interact as part of a group, and doesn't have it's emotional needs fully met living in isolation.

Well yes, we are going to be talking at cross purposes if you're simply making up your own definition for words that already have an established meaning within the area under discussion.

Horses don't have their needs fully met living in isolation. They are not commonly referred to as "pack animals".
Gerbils don't have their needs fully met living in isolation. They are not commonly referred to as "pack animals".
Chimpanzees don't have their needs fully met living in isolation. They are not commonly...you see where I'm going with this?

If you don't use terminology correct, you can't be surprised when people assume you're not an expert in the field.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I don't mind dogs in gardens of the pub but not sure why they are taken there unless you have been for a walk

I don't want someone's slobbering dog next to me when I am eating

As for shops no of course not unless of course they are guide dogs

It's selfish to think others want to be around your dog take them to the park, a common and then leave them at home you might enjoy their company but not everyone else does

[sparechange]

Page, horses are commonly referred to as herd animals though. Presumably because of the differing collective nouns for dogs and horses.
But it is besides the point. You should be sticking together in the face of people saying a pub visit isn't enhanced by a few dogs..!

[PageStillNotFound404]

Not everyone eating in a pub with a dog is necessarily close enough to home to leave their dog there, EnthusiasmDisturbed. They could be out for the day, and the time they’re spending out of the house would be too long to leave a dog alone even if they wanted to. They could be on holiday and, as I mentioned above, most pet-friendly cottages/hotels etc ask that dogs are not left alone in the property or room. They could even be staying in the pub as some offer dog-friendly accommodation. Or they could, as you say, simply be on their way back from a dog walk and the pub is en route.

[Jeremysfavouriteaunt]

sparechange spot on with that comment, I understood what was meant by the original post too.

[sparechange]

Enthusiasm
What about if the dog isn't slobbering? Is it then ok?

Taking a dog 'shopping' depends on your definition of going shopping
Of course it would be weird to drag pooch around Topshop for the afternoon, but shopping for me means puttering around my local area. I go for a coffee and read, then might grab a bottle of wine from the wine shop, and veg from the greengrocers and some meat from the butchers and some stamps from the newsagents on my way home. DDog would be happy to tag along for all of that, and would be warmly greeted by each one of those shops.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

They well could be

But it's now become common place for people to take their dogs to the pub Friday evenings and Saturday afternoon. Thankfully two local pubs that I know of ask owners to take their dogs outside when it is busy as it was creating issues people complaining about not wanting dogs around while they are eating their food, this is perfectly reasonable, and dogs barking at other dogs or for whatever other reason

The gardens are not over run with dogs and surprisingly the dogs are more often ok to be left at home

[wasabipeanut]

The hygiene/no dogs where food is served argument is utter bollocks - unless all pubs disinfect their customers on the way in as well. Who knows where hands might have been and how well they've been washed?

Dogs are rightly banned from actual food prep areas but there's no need to ban them from eating areas. They aren't inherently unhygienic.

Most town centre places don't allow dogs anyway, it's just the old rural pubs now - what's left of them

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

Dogs slobber some more than others

It's not unreasonable to not want to be around dogs when you have paid
for a meal out. And I am not including guide dogs as they are needed by their owners pets do need to be with their owners constantly

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

not everyone likes dogs get over it

Not everyone likes cats my cat doesn't seemed bothered by this and neither am I

[PageStillNotFound404]

sparechange I won’t bore you with the details as I am aware I’m taking this off topic, but suffice to say that in ethology, “pack hunter” (rather than "pack animal" which refers to a beast of burden) and “herd animal” have commonly understood and quite precise meanings, which are not even close to the definition made up by Lurkedforever. I would expect someone claiming the level of knowledge that they did to know that and to use the terminology correctly.

[wasabipeanut]

Provided people don't allow their dogs to "slobber" over others I really don't see the issue. If said animals stay close to their owners & are basically still then how can people object - they aren't harmed by the dogs presence.

[FarrowandBallAche]

I don't get this ' slobbery dog ' statement.

Some breeds drool, yes. But dogs on the whole aren't slobbery.

I have 3 dogs. 2 never slobber. Ever. Not when they're waiting to be fed, when they can smell or see food or when they've had a drink.

One of them slobbers only after he's had a big drink and then he's gets his chops wiped.

[Lurkedforever1]

page seems I was right: You think that your knowledge is something new, when to people like me it's something we've always done. If you never bought into the dominant fighting alpha pack theory in the first place, you don't need it debunking by a new study. Bit like herd theory with horses. People with experience know exactly how a herd operates, and how we as humans fit in with it. The less experienced come along and tell you that stallions don't lead the herd, thinking they are revealing something you don't know. The dog world is no different.

[flirtygirl]

Wasabi
There is a issue with hygiene and dogs, the hair can get everywhere and as a poster said up the thread about when they worked in a dog friendly cafe that floating dog hair landing on food was a problem.
If you enjoy your chips with a side order of hair then fine but what about us who dont.
Also eating around pets puts me off my dinner, in fact wouldnt even start eating, its a massive hygiene issue

[PageStillNotFound404]

Yeah, still doesn't alter the fact you used the terminology incorrectly

Humans are not part of the dog's pack by any of the commonly accepted ethological or canine behavioural definitions of pack. Simple as that. You can wave your somewhat dubious credentials in the air as much as you like but it doesn't make your previous post correct.