To just be honest for a minute

[darkonyx]

Namechanged.

One of my friends recently signed up for a dating site, and within a month is coupled-up, which is of course very lovely for her and I have no doubt she will be another friend married within the next twenty four to thirty six months! (I'm 30, nearly 31.) All well and good.

I feel sad that it probably won't happen for me.

Here is the thing: I am considerably below "average" in the looks stakes. I don't have a nice figure (this isn't linked to size so much as proportions and so on) and although I do try, I am constantly fighting a losing battle against excess body hair and the like!

Now, I don't want this to turn into a "low self esteem - needs counselling" post. I don't think I have very low self esteem - I am really successful career wise, have bought my own home outright, and have a lot going on I am happy with.

But I would love a family and children.

Before people say I am young to have written myself off, I know, but unfortunately I am that person men shout abuse at when drunk in the street; I have been on dating sites more times than I've had hot dinners and haven't got further than "hey hows u" from men twenty years my senior and have had no interest throughout college, university and my post grad. I think I am realistic about my chances!

I have looked into adoption but I don't think it's for me.

It makes me sad.

I think most people meet their partners young and are sexually attracted to one another on the basis of looks; as people age and wrinkle lose that affection still remains of course.

Have you researched this? For a great many people who choose higher education, they dont meet someone until they are out of school and establishing their career. So, your age peers.

Not to mantion, the number of people who partner up when young, and then split up and find new partners in their 30s. Again, your age peers. And well beyond, too.

The voice in your head is an immature 13 year old. Your 'vent' is a childish whinge. When it comes to relationships and sex you need to grow up, set aside your notions about appearance being the main factor, and work with what and who you are instead of blaming what you arent. You may be right. There may indeed be not one man in dating distance that finds your entire package enticing. But you wont really know until you stop listening to the voice in your head that is leading you astray, and put forth your own actual self.

Who cares if your friend's picture on your profile got 12 hits on a dating site? All that tells you is that 12 men of the sort that do value appearance, liked her picture. Such men would bore you to tears anyway.

squeezing with your acceptable looking meter?

messing - not sure how the hell squeezing got there.

It is very very hard to break old habits, and particularly habits in the way you think about yourself. You seem to be someone who is fairly self-aware, reflective, even cerebral about the way that you think about yourself. But when it comes to social interaction, human beings are animals. By which I mean, we can smell fear and anxiety a mile off, and we make judgments based on tiny micro-expressions and body language and things that you'd never necessarily be conscious of and that it's not at all easy to change.

Thinking 'be confident', 'be open to advances', 'flirt', etc, is not going to undercut the physical and mental habits of what sounds like a whole social lifetime. And, to be frank, it's probably harder to undercut these habits when you're intelligent - as you obviously are - because you'll be overthinking and overanalysing, which is never conducive to seeming like a relaxed and confident, and therefore attractive, social individual.

But, big but, I think you do have to entertain the possibility that there is something underlying this situation that has nothing to do with looks. I think you should trust the people on this board that good looks does not = attractiveness. And then I think...well, maybe just jettison the idea of coupling up, and allow the possibility that you might, one day, just fall head over heels in love with someone. Would it be the worst if it was never requited? Of course it would be fucking awful, but NO the worst is if you never allowed yourself that vulnerability.

Aside from this non-advice, I don't really have anything to offer. It sucks to feel the way you do, and I'm not surprised you've insulated yourself against this hurt. The only thing I'd suggest maybe is to watch lots of old classic black and white movies with bolshie dames - Katharine Hepburn, Bette Davis, etc. I don't know why, I just feel like maybe you need a 'model' for your unconventionally sexy and loveworthy self that doesn't correspond with the contemporary, unforgiving version of womanhood. Good luck.

completely agree with mildred

Now I'm going to sound VERY unkind but I will write it with the intention of being kind to you op - I know women (and men!) who really aren't fortunate in the looks department. The first two who spring to mind are either married or in a long term relationship and they both have children. Being 'below average' in looks is not a barrier to finding a partner and having a family.

I think you sound like a wonderful person and think it's unfortunate you're in this situation.

I've got no advice to offer but just wanted to say you're deserving of love and I hope you're wrong.

Some people find finding new partners easy and some people find it hard. Looks play their part. The more physically appealing one is the bigger the pool of 'first contacts' and so more potential for 2nd 3rd and more contacts and so relationships. No point pretending otherwise. One might not be anything to look at but other qualities compensate to a greater or lesser extent. Without initial physical attraction it is difficult to get to the next stages. It's not just looks though.

Some people have a package which maximizes interest. Whenever one relationship ends there is a queue of already interested parties and after a few nights out they are coupled up again. Say they are 100s And it stands to reason that people who are 0s are also possible. Like some people have PhDs and speak 6 languages and play the piano like a pro and some people leave school not being able to read. There are always outliers.

Some people never find that someone. Sad but true. I certainly have always had very long gaps between relationships for several reasons, a major one being the pool of interest is fairly small so the chances of meeting someone I also am interested in is smaller still. After that it's just luck. Either you meet Mr Right or your paths don't cross.

It's possible there are things you could improve or tweak that would increase your chances. I have no idea what they are. There were programmes about people with no luck at dating but how one would find a 'dating consultant' I don't know.

I am also thinking I'm not likely to have another relationship while hoping I'm wrong.

So in summary I have no advice! Sorry. Just a solidarity fist bump.

There was a great article I can't find now about how 'beautiful' seems to be the most important value and so we all need to describe all our friends as beautiful regardless of the evidence to the contrary. 'But beauty isn't just about looks' they clamour, Well it is really. Those other things are different qualities and should be valued as such, not have us pretend they are all a part of the same thing because it's the only thing that is valued.

This has made me really sad!
I'm a firm believer that not everyone is picture perfect and I'm not going to bullsh*t you by saying everyone has a soulmate! But if you want something go for it! Thee are ways to have a baby without needing someone else there ! Have you thought of fertility treatments etc.
Sending lots of love xxx

This has made me really sad!
I'm a firm believer that not everyone is picture perfect and I'm not going to bullsh*t you by saying everyone has a soulmate! But if you want something go for it! Thee are ways to have a baby without needing someone else there ! Have you thought of fertility treatments etc.
Sending lots of love xxx

I doubt this is about your looks but more about how you feel about your looks.

So I would work on doing things that help you change that like;

Laser all the excess hair off
Book into a good salon and get your hair and make up done
Book a personal shopper
Get your nails done.
Either get walking, running, swimming, training etc

If you keep

I am no dolly bird and am pretty low key but I find if my hair, make up and nails are ok and my clothes are up to scratch I feel so much better

think the problem here might be that the OP has some kind of ideal in her head as to what kind of man she would like to be with. She is dismissive of older men (20 years older) in her OP who contacted her on the dating sites. Why not give them a chance? Plenty of people are with older men and very happy an fulfilled in their relationships. Sometimes you don't match up to people your own age in terms of attitudes to life and interests.
I think you need to be more open to finding love by giving more people a chance to convince you with their personality and not dismissing them because they are too old, too young, too bald, too short etc.
When I was 30 I had all but given up then along came someone 2 years older than me. It was fine for a while but went pear-shaped He wasn't the right person. The relationship lasted 3 years. As soon as we broke up I had lots of offers and also joined dating sites (where unfortunately the people contacting me were only interested in casual sex). Packed in the dating sites and decided just to enjoy myself and not even think about looking for a man.
Along came a younger man (13 years younger) who is the most interesting person I have ever met. We met through a mutual interest. I thought nothing would come of it and in fact was so convinced that the age gap was ridiculous that I built a few walls up. However, he didn't give up and we are very happy.
Don't dismiss people for random reasons because they don't meet your ideal and consider a wider age-range of men. It has as much chance of working out as someone the same age.
I really do not believe that the problem is that the OP is "unattractive". I am also unattractive.

I don't really have anything to add except I could have written the OP. I get how you feel

I think we are all talking to ourselves here but wanted to post anyway. Almost everyone has said that all types of people, of all levels of attractiveness, can be in a relationship. Attractiveness/beauty is all relative. What about disabled people and those with facial disfigurements who manage to sustain loving relationships? Your looks are not a barrier.

You didn't respond to people pointing that out over and over op. Why will you not acknowledge that?

Just because something is possible it doesn't follow that it will happen.

Don't dismiss people for random reasons because they don't meet your ideal and consider a wider age-range of men

I found when I did online dating that there were some very crappy written profiles and very unflattering pictures (missing person/blurry). Your profile needs to be interesting, but not say everything, definitely leave an icebreaker. I remember writing something like I'd love to have a go in a ballon - if so where'd you go? Maybe a picture of you smiling, relaxed with friends.

This is not a dig but women have it easier on line as there are more men and you have more potential for your profile being seen. there are some guys that go online and Don't even get a visit to their profile.

I've never really bothered with going for guys who have a certain "good" look, and have never been short of a partner. Looks aren't everything.
I've worked in make dominated environments, worn unattractive bulky check lumberjack work clothes and boots, highvis, hard hats etc etc, and still never was wanting for a date. I didn't treat men badly to keep them on tenterhooks, I just had a laugh and was myself.

There were some blokey girls studying with me and they were only considered friends by the boys, but the unattractive thing about the blokey girls was, strangely enough, their SMELL.

They didn't smell 'right' to me even. Their clothes had a musty smell, and they smelt of fusty unclean skin oil. Maybe they didn't wash enough, or maybe they dried their clothes on the radiators, instead of airing them properly. Maybe they had coats that they never allowed to dry completly so they had that dreadful wet dog smell.... Maybe they didn't wash / rinse their hair properly, and so it always had a suffocating head oil smell.
These girls never had boyfriends.

You say you like animals OP, but do you or your clothes smell like one?

A lot of men I've studied with and worked with have commented that I smell fantastic. I have no idea what they actually mean, (like, what is fantastic to a guy?) as I mostly gravitate towards light scents/ green tea perfumes, and in winter Amber perfumes. Elizabeth Arden, and lOccitaine do some nice green tea scents, and a nice Amber and sandalwood one too.

I think you're focussing too much on looks OP and suggest you let your other senses take you on a trip!

Maybe time to get your smell overhauled, and then just waft your way to a partner?

Or start wine tasting, or singing / vocal training, or learning how to give a massage.
I know we live in a visual world, but if you feel you're not getting anywhere fast on looks, try trusting your other senses? Good luck!

darkonyx it's interesting reading your OP and comments - in your OP you say it makes you sad, but in many replies you sound fairly content....i assume it's the thought of not having a family rather than your looks per se which makes you sad?

there have been many suggestions along the lines of 'try this' / 'change that' / 'go here' etc, but tbh you dont seem keen, so it seems that approach isn't for you - which is fair enough.

re internet dating, i've never done it but it would seem to be the hardest/harshest way to meet someone in many ways (and you cant smell them either venus) - a male friend of mine did ID for nearly 2 years (many dates to be fair) until he found someone he liked enough to go past 2 dates (fussy bugger!). i'd imagine it's making you feel worse?

however, the many people saying love/the one may turn up at anytime, any day, anywhere are right, so whilst you might not want to change anything, and are in many ways accepting of your percieved fate...dont shut the door just yet; you are still young(ish)

good luck!

Dating sites can emotionally drain you. I'm not bad looking but I don't take a good photograph. The men I've dated have all said I'm much better looking in the flesh ( well they would say that, wouldn't they?).
What is sexy and attractive is confidence and intelligence.
I have a relative who is most definitely unattractive physically, however she wears flamboyant clothes and has really edgy haircuts and exhumes a sassy sexiness , has always had more than her fair share of gorgeous men.
Start believing in yourself. Tell yourself you can have any man you want and it will happen.
Some years ago I had the most overwhelming crush ( mutual), on a man I'd known for years. It came out of the blue. He was in no way good looking but he had so much charisma.
During my crush phase I realised I was taking far more care with my appearance. I had so many men take an interest in me. It wasn't just about how I dressed or what colour lipstick I was wearing..it was because I was sending out all the right signals that I was available.

aw OP, I feel sorry for you. I haven't read all the posts, but feel free to PM me a picture if you want any advice - I'm sure you look fine.

You say you work in a male dominated field - maybe this has had an effect on your dress sense, perhaps you ARE attractive but you don't get much opportunity to dress feminine?

Do you wax/thread the body hair? Is your hair style modern? Nice makeup, perfume etc?

Most of the time its not that the person is unattractive, they just unconsciously make themselves so.

So:

No features which are "weird" and could be fixed with surgery

Good hair, teeth, eyes by your own admission

Not hugely under/overweight

Already "Making the most of yourself" through posh makeovers and grooming

That leaves your short legs. People with NO legs still get dates so doubt that's it.

And I can't imagine your face is so wrong when you have nice facial features like eyes and teeth and no giant wonky nose or whatever.

Haven't read the whole thread so I apologise if I am repeating what has been said but personally I believe attractiveness is strongly related to confidence. You lack confidence in your looks and this translates to others. I know you said you don't think it is a self-esteem issue but I think it may be.

FFS can we just stop with the "Get a good haircut" etc type comments? Rtft! The OP has said SEVERAL TIMES that she DOES keep herself neat, tidy, clean and groomed. She's assured everyone that she doesn't walk round dressed in a sack. She has her hair and nails done and attends to excess body hair.

No wonder she's left the thread. Nobody listens.

No wonder she's left the thread. Nobody listens.

I think she left the thread because she didn't want to listen - people weren't telling her that yes, she's ugly and that's why she's single.

No. They were determined to give her hair/foliage/makeup/style advice, clinging doggedly to the idea that she'd be a stunna if she just made an effort; despite being told repeatedly that she DOES look after herself.

On this page of 25 posts there are two that advise the OP to do things with hair, makeup, etc. The vast majority tell her that her looks aren't the problem; it's been the same throughout the thread, but THAT'S the bit she doesn't want to listen to.