To just be honest for a minute

[darkonyx]

Namechanged.

One of my friends recently signed up for a dating site, and within a month is coupled-up, which is of course very lovely for her and I have no doubt she will be another friend married within the next twenty four to thirty six months! (I'm 30, nearly 31.) All well and good.

I feel sad that it probably won't happen for me.

Here is the thing: I am considerably below "average" in the looks stakes. I don't have a nice figure (this isn't linked to size so much as proportions and so on) and although I do try, I am constantly fighting a losing battle against excess body hair and the like!

Now, I don't want this to turn into a "low self esteem - needs counselling" post. I don't think I have very low self esteem - I am really successful career wise, have bought my own home outright, and have a lot going on I am happy with.

But I would love a family and children.

Before people say I am young to have written myself off, I know, but unfortunately I am that person men shout abuse at when drunk in the street; I have been on dating sites more times than I've had hot dinners and haven't got further than "hey hows u" from men twenty years my senior and have had no interest throughout college, university and my post grad. I think I am realistic about my chances!

I have looked into adoption but I don't think it's for me.

It makes me sad.

Of all the accusations ever flung my way I don't think 'standoffish' has ever once featured!

Ironically, many of the women I know who are very popular with the opposite sex are standoffish and sometimes quite rude.

Oh I've tried it all with OD, trust me! Talking to men, not talking to men. Asking them about their profile, giving more generic 'hey!'s out. Talking about travel and scuba diving and how amazing it is when you jump out of a plane for the first time and how I love homely homes and dogs and log fires (all true by the way just distinctly different parts of my nature!)

Changed pictures with my friend and BAM! I was Ms Popular

Honestly, I appreciate people's ideas and suggestions but I'm moving towards acceptance. This is just a last moan or whine or whimper if you like.

I have a friend and all the way through college she never had a boyfriend. For years after she never even had one date. She is a very pleasant fun girl but not very regular in looks. She was Papworth everyone. Sporty great cook etc. Then in her early thirties a new guy joined her work and they took off. If you had to handpicked someone you could not do better. They now have 3 kids in a busy sporty household with lots of good food and outdoor activities. He was her only date ever. She didn't have one flirting bone in her body. But she is happy now. Just be yourself.

Carben - that's because this thread is about my looks.

Here are the positives - I am funny, fearless, very clever (!) tough, talented, filled with heart and love, adore anything covered in fur, feathers or fins, and I'll say this now - no one, NO ONE, can make a veggie curry like I can!

I just have a face like the back end of a bus. Even my own mother conceded I was 'plain'!

X posted. Yes flirtimg need not be overt.
I am dreadful at it.
But my friend who is v good just has a way of letting people know when she is interested without being at all obvious. wish I knew how she bloody does it

Not sure where you go to learn it though but I think the first step is to stop assuming no one finds you attractive for who you are. Maybe you have already met the person who likes you for who you are but you haven't realised and they assume you are not interested my male friends have an annoying habit of telling me years after the fact when it is too late

Smiling and eye contact help.
And booze

What I'm saying is there is loads more to me rh a how I look. In the same way there's more to somebody who struggles academically than their GCSEs.

Just as GCSEs often - though not always - are what you need for further education and thus high paying professions, same with looks and attracting a life partner. I've just had no interest. But I am sounding negative now as I have to keep explaining myself which I apologise for.

Thank you for your time everybody.

*than how I look.

I love autocorrect.

I do appreciate how tough it is, Darkonyx.

I would have loved to be married with children, and I'm not, and given my age it's probably not going to happen now. Like you, I have loads of hobbies, some wonderful friends, and a good career, so it's not as though my life is empty.

That doesn't stop it being deeply sad that I don't have a family to love and cherish. Very best wishes to you.

Smile. A lot. I had a very average friend but she always had men after her because she smiled and looked happy. It really worked for her.

I bet you anything if you had a major hair re-vamp, professional make up lesson and regular trips to the beauty salon you'd be hot.
I am quite plain. I have very fair blotchy skin, mottled teeth and fine straggly brown hair.
However I make an effort most of the time to sort out my skin, hair & teeth and so people describe me as attractive. Other people are naturally beautiful. The rest of us fake it.

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about

Yes - you do know I don't walk around in bin bags?

Hair highlighted and cut every 5 weeks. Nails done. Makeup - subtle but on - foundation (clarins) mascara (Clinique) eyeliner (subtle) very pale pink eyeshadow to brighten eyes. Concealer for shadows and scars. Silk purses and sows ears. Anyway - no more from me!

Can you tell us what you think would make you more pretty? I know you can't change your legs, but is there anything at all that you think would make a difference? You clearly have enough money to make any changes you want to make and I wonder why you wouldn't make them, just to give yourself confidence.

Smile. Make and hold eye contact. Especially with slightly older ugly blokes who won't believe their luck. Ask your male friends for an honest view as to whether you are fanciable and if not, why not.

How do you explain the incredibly unattractive (some quite misfortunate) people partnered up and having families? Have you noticed they're all over?

Nothing, Imperial Everything that can be done, I do. I do have pride in my appearance but I have accepted there are basic raw things that can't be changed and I'm just not attractive to others physically.

I will stop posting now I know I already said that its surprising how upsetting no one wanting you is!

They're everywhere. That's why pp are finding it so hard to believe you.

How do I explain them?

Ok. Like this:

1. A lot of people meet their partners young. As years pass they become less attractive but the love remains. However, some attraction was needed in the first instance.

1. I think a LOT of people are so scared to be alone they'll settle for anyone, no matter how unsuitable.

Last one, I promise!

OP, no one knows what the future holds but one thing I am certain of from reading your posts is that the guy who eventually gets you is a seriously lucky man.

Ah bless you - what a lovely thing to say!

But we're saying, darkonyx that no matter how bad you think you look, there are tons and tons of people who aren't conventionally attractive who do meet people.

I can understand if you want to just complain but you're at an age where you can really turn your life around.

Would you dare speak to a friend about it? Do you have one particular friend you could talk to?

OP, I'm just going to be blunt here. If it's not your looks, then it's your demeanour around men. You can have one or the other or even both, but if you have neither, then your chances of getting a man's positive attention which can lead to a flirtation are nil.

As someone up thread posted, if you act defensive and covered in barbed wire, then men will run a mile. YOU have to be brave and make the first positive move.

A smile and a bit of wide eyed eyelash fluttering (and I say this as a feminist!) can work wonders. It's all about making some man's day that bit brighter and he will remember you.

Ignore the online dating stats as well. That really is all based on superficial looks,

Imperial, my friends wouldn't want to hurt me. I'm sure no ones do Some are sweetly loyal and insist I'm GORGEOUS! But in all honesty I tend not to mention it.

I've heard (by mistake generally) conversations or references to my looks enough times to know that I am the sort of anti Helen of Troy!

Right! We're just going round in circles now!

I promise I am not defensive but gorgeous and lovely and sweet and funny. Meanwhile, the moody girls with sultry lips get the men. Pfft! No taste I tell you! But - you can't make someone fancy you. That's the gist of it.

Now for something productive Corrie

You moan away. You've been dealt a shitty hand and it's not fair. I had a vaguely similar opinion of myself at your age and things have turned out ok for me. Hope they do for you too. The world is a strange place where horrible women who treat men like crap and cheat on them are deemed more attractive than lovely ladies like yourself.

But but...ugly does absolutely not mean a life alone with no children. So it must be something else. Either that or it's a case of not having bumped into the man who fancies you and vice versa. I don't think acceptance is the right way to go but then...you seem so negative and dare I say it unable to take on another viewpoint except your own. Life is so short, if you want a family you can create one without a partner if you are sure you're never going to meet the one. There is a very good Danish sperm bank I've been looking into bad marriage never want to live with a man again but want more children