To just be honest for a minute

[darkonyx]

Namechanged.

One of my friends recently signed up for a dating site, and within a month is coupled-up, which is of course very lovely for her and I have no doubt she will be another friend married within the next twenty four to thirty six months! (I'm 30, nearly 31.) All well and good.

I feel sad that it probably won't happen for me.

Here is the thing: I am considerably below "average" in the looks stakes. I don't have a nice figure (this isn't linked to size so much as proportions and so on) and although I do try, I am constantly fighting a losing battle against excess body hair and the like!

Now, I don't want this to turn into a "low self esteem - needs counselling" post. I don't think I have very low self esteem - I am really successful career wise, have bought my own home outright, and have a lot going on I am happy with.

But I would love a family and children.

Before people say I am young to have written myself off, I know, but unfortunately I am that person men shout abuse at when drunk in the street; I have been on dating sites more times than I've had hot dinners and haven't got further than "hey hows u" from men twenty years my senior and have had no interest throughout college, university and my post grad. I think I am realistic about my chances!

I have looked into adoption but I don't think it's for me.

It makes me sad.

I don't think online dating success or otherwise is a very good barometer. I find it very shallow.

TBH you sound a bit defeatist about it all, which I think is sad for you. You sound like you have some lovely attributes (not meant in a patronising way).

I work in a male dominated sector, and my experience is that it really knocked my opinion of myself. They liked to discuss who they thought was hot, and I was just one of the boys. I was compared unfavourably to Sharon out of Birds of a Feather (which, when you are in your early twenties is a bit of a blow), even though I think I polish up pretty well.

Guys can just be cruel sometimes.

My advice to anyone who would like a relationship but struggles to make a connection is always the same: get a bar job, preferably on week nights when places are quieter and one can get talking with the clientele. I used to own a bar and I saw many, many relationships blossom.

You need to do the thing of asking your male and female friends what they think. Your defensive excuses for not doing it suggest you're scared there's a reason that isn't looks-related. Or, I suppose, that they'll all say looks. But as a million and one people have stated, looks aren't a barrier to relationships.

Good luck OP!

You seem to get on well with lots of men. Could it be that you're not good at flirting, building intimacy etc? So that the men you know don't 'see you in that way'. I know it's hard if it doesn't come naturally (and much harder if you believe you're not fancisble), but those skills can be practised & learned.

I can't comment on your looks, because I haven't seen you, but you sound lovely and very, very funny. I bet you are much better looking than you think, but it sounds as if you don't want to hear that! Instead, here are a few thoughts.

• Honestly, 30 is still really young. Don't write off your romantic and family potential just yet.
• Do you want lots of dates? sex? Or are you really, in your heart of hearts, just holding out for a meaningful relationship? Because if you just wanted the former, you could get them. But I think you really want a proper relationship, and they are a bit harder to come by, just because there is a much smaller pool of people to choose from. It's OK, though -- as a PP said, you only need one.
• And it's at round about your age that most men grow up enough to be able to handle a real relationship with someone of your worth. With some honourable exceptions, most men in their 20s are just not ready to look beyond dating-type relationships.
• In addition, it is sadly true that many men are intimidated by funny, clever women. Again, I wouldn't worry too much about that because they're not worth having anyway -- though I realise it is a bit dispiriting to be parked so swiftly in the friend zone so often. But there ARE men who like funny, clever women and there is plenty of time for you to meet one.
• I'm already married but if I wasn't I don't think I'd go NEAR an online dating site. Unless it was one like (I think) eHarmony, which sounds as if it does the initial matching for you.

Hi OP

I have a few thoughts:

What kind of clothes do you usually wear? I'm just wondering what image you're projecting. Is there anyone famous who reminds you of yourself? I totally agree with other posters about vibes/flirting. I bet the message you're giving off is a bad combination of "I'm so clever, successful etc etc but if you actually fancy me you must be an idiot." I'm not saying act stupid and sexy but all the advice you've had about flirting is good I think. Ok so you might not have men attracted to you immediately - but instead of thinking (& giving off vibes of) "you don't fancy me" why don't you try "I'm amazing, clever etc etc and you might fancy me when you get to know me".

You mentioned you didn't fancy short bald men...
Maybe you should get to know some/consider some as a romantic prospect and you might end up fancying them! I'm not saying settle for someone you're not attracted to, but attraction can develop. I wonder if, not having had much romantic experience since school, you're still stuck in a school like mentality with the jocks, cheerleaders, etc (sorry for the American analogy!). You can go for men other than the one everyone else fancies (based on looks, coolness) - you just need to give a few men a chance to show you what they're really like (the chance I think you'd like to be given yourself?).

I agree with people saying ask your friends. I have a friend who was always single & never discussed it and we just never asked her because it had become this awkward elephant in the room. Then one day another friend decided to ask her anyway and it all came out that she wanted to meet someone, had tried this and that etc. now we know she's looking, into men (which we weren't sure about before!). So now we keep our eyes /minds open for anyone who might be suitable for her to introduce them.

Obviously I have no idea what you look like. However, I don't know a single person who is so unattractive as to be unfanciable especially if they make an effort as you seem to do.

I do know people who are unattractive in their natural state. That sounds awful but I am definitely one of them!!

The thing is, and I know you don't want to hear this, I have fancied men who if you showed me a photo I'd have been put off but who are funny or kind or just 'sexy' in the flesh.

Equally I know a fair few people who are conventionally attractive and yet, once I've got to know them I think they are twats and I wouldn't go neAr them with a barge pole.

I met dh at 19 and we have kids etc and I never thought anyone would love or fancy me.

I am not attractive. Not completely revolting, but definitely below average I'd say.
Wierd thing is, DH finds me attractive. I think he's off his rocker.

But I also know people who are really unattractive. They have partners. And DCs. I mean they might not be married to Brad Pitt, but they seem to have nice, loving relationships.

I think online dating is looks-based, but you are still young and gave plenty of time for a chance meeting or a developing friendship. Don't despair/give up.

C'mon have you seen the jeremy kyle show. Looks are no barrier to a having a partner

I remember when dating before I met DH. I would go on lots of dates but it never went past the first date because I wouldn't sleep with them.

I met DH at a Halloween party through a mutual friend. Since you have so many guy friends why don't you ask them to set you up on a date? Also try eharmony. It's a PITA to fill everything out but at least you are filtering out he guys who are not suitable.

Reading your posts you sound negative. Start to smile and say yes. Be open to others want to approach you. No one wants to date a killjoy.

Humor aside (Jeremy Kyle show... ), looks genuinely do have very little to do with it. My DH's best friend got married to a woman who is genuinely not physically attractive in any objective sense of the term and who is fairly introverted but - and she sounds very much like you in this - she has lots of interests, is bright and hard working and is always busy doing something and meeting people. She has about 4 times as many friends as I do and people like her because she is unthreatening and easy to get along with. They met online too by the way and now have two children together.

So looks are not the big deal you might think they are. The important thing is to get yourself out there and meet people as friends, male and female. Continue pursuing your hobbies, keep on working hard and just take up as many opportunities to meet others as you can.

The online thing might not be the right forum for you (although it worked for my DH's friend) but it's worth keeping an eye on it anyway. You just have to be open to opportunities as much as possible.

Whatever you do, don't focus on having a relationship and getting married - just focus on meeting new people and making friends. The wider your social circle is, the more chance you have of meeting someone.

I have a friend, OP, who is approaching 30. She's never had a 'proper' boyfriend and she's drop dead gorgeous. Great size 10 curvy figure, beautiful features. I would pay a lot of money to have her body!

My point is, looks don't always give you the edge. I think sometimes it's just luck. She's just not met the one for her, and neither have you.

OP, can I ask what you were hoping to get out of this thread? While I can understand that it must be frustrating when people make suggestions that are off the mark, or are things you have already tried, they are only trying to help and in not one post have you said "thanks" to anyone, all you do is launch straight in with a list of reasons why they don't understand, and you already know what the problem is and can't fix it. Dare I say it that you don't seem very adept at rapport-building, which is the cornerstone of forming relationships?

I also noticed that you haven't answered the question about whether you would date an ugly man? In fact you were quite rude about short bald men upthread. For every woman who feels like you do I reackon there are probably twice as many blokes who feel battered by the ugly stick and they have less means of disguising it with makeup, hairstyling and clever dressing.

It is a good point that someone made, that at 30 many men in your age group are only now maturing into long term relationships so perhaps you'll see things improve soon. I am average in the looks dept and did not meet DH till I was 37, if that's any consolation.

Best of luck. And if all else fails, don't discount alcohol as a good means of bonding with men...

Exactly what Jessie said.

It is about confidence though as many people thought of as very attractive are just confident. Also you look at many couples and they seem ill matched looks wise until you realise that one of them is more confident than the other.

Totally agree guideline when I look back at pictures of when me and oh got together he was so much better looking than me I looked a fright actually- very overweight for my size, badly cut hair I'd bleached the hell out of- so wrong for my dark colouring- but at the time I thought I looked awesome and that he was lucky to have me :) confidence goes a long way

Op I really don't believe it's your looks. Not everyone is attractive and ugly people do enter relationships.

Btw my dp's best friend who is extremely awkward and shy had his first relationship at 27. Yes he was younger than you but not massively. He is now 37 and in his second relationship and has just moved in with her.

Lol wishful your post made me laugh

I think the problem is that you are finding fault too quickly with the men you meet, not the other way around!

OP I sympathise but I simply don't believe it's your looks that are the main issue. Many, many extremely physically unattractive people have relationships so unless you are literally the most physically unappealing person who has ever lived (and from what you say I highly doubt that as you sound well-groomed, etc) there must be something else at work.

Although you sound confident in your personality, you do come across as having 'decided' that you're not physically attractive, which is really off-putting. People who believe they are physically attractive have a way of walking, of carrying themselves, of acting as if they automatically assume people find them physically attractive rather than automatically assuming they don't.

What makes you sexy? You might be very likeable and friendly, but what makes you unique, funny, cheeky, a bit edgy, a bit exciting? EVERYONE has something of this in their personality.

The one thing you haven't mentioned is whether you fancy/ have fancied a particular man. You have talked about wanting a relationship and about men fancying you but not the other way round.

Do you fancy the pants off someone - because if you do, and he knows, there is a much better chance of it working. If you don't what is the point anyway?

I used to fancy so many men. I'd love their arms, and eyes and voices and that showed when they talked to me - that I was sexual, that I was aware, that I was interested. Then we'd flirt. ( And I am not pretty at all, fat, short, legs like treetrunks, flattish features!!). It might or might not go further but it was two-way.

The online dating experiment is meaningless. Of course a prettier friend would get messages as would a pic of George Clooney as opposed to a pic of Jabba the Hut, (however "caring" he was).

Anyway - I wish you the best - it is sad, I know, I was without a partner for five years in my twenties and it was hard.

My advice - start finding men attractive and let them see it - not in a predatory way but in an appreciative, fun way - with a twinkle and a sparkle.

I met someone on the weekend, she was, like most of us, average in every way - appearance wise.

She had a good job, was financially stable and had made the decision to have a baby on her own in her late 30s. So if its a baby you're after, then not being in a relationship won't necessarily stop you.

Jo band is married with kids

Brand sorry x