To just be honest for a minute

[darkonyx]

Namechanged.

One of my friends recently signed up for a dating site, and within a month is coupled-up, which is of course very lovely for her and I have no doubt she will be another friend married within the next twenty four to thirty six months! (I'm 30, nearly 31.) All well and good.

I feel sad that it probably won't happen for me.

Here is the thing: I am considerably below "average" in the looks stakes. I don't have a nice figure (this isn't linked to size so much as proportions and so on) and although I do try, I am constantly fighting a losing battle against excess body hair and the like!

Now, I don't want this to turn into a "low self esteem - needs counselling" post. I don't think I have very low self esteem - I am really successful career wise, have bought my own home outright, and have a lot going on I am happy with.

But I would love a family and children.

Before people say I am young to have written myself off, I know, but unfortunately I am that person men shout abuse at when drunk in the street; I have been on dating sites more times than I've had hot dinners and haven't got further than "hey hows u" from men twenty years my senior and have had no interest throughout college, university and my post grad. I think I am realistic about my chances!

I have looked into adoption but I don't think it's for me.

It makes me sad.

Well if that's how you see it then have you considered cosmetic surgery? You sound like a good candidate if you'd purely wish to make yourself more conventionally attractive.

Do you need really a man to settle down and have children?
I've spent nearly a decade wishing I hadn't bothered with the man part of it.

You may find someone or you may not. But I wouldn't wait around hoping for men to come to their senses. I don't think you need to change anything about your appearance, looks shouldn't be important.

If you have good friends, that is the most important thing. And think about whether you could possibly raise a child on your own.

Which physical part do you want to change the most. What do YOU think is the most 'ugly' part ?

I must say I am so jealous of your ability to make friends. You sound very popular and lovely! I've always struggled with making friends and assume people find me dull, so it's a trait I long for!

I think that perhaps you are just not sending out "avaliable woman" vibes so you are always overlooked. Someone earlier said learn how to flirt which I think is a good idea. Even if it leads nowhere, everyone loves a bit of flirting.

If you're brave enough to ask a few close mates then go for it. I doubt they'll say it's your looks.

Just thinking about people who I've found/find attractive and not all are lookers. For me I like a good laugh and a bit of banter, and major teasing. It's all about the personality. There's been probably less than 5 men in real life (ie not celebs) who I have deemed "fanciably fit" just from looking. Everyone else that I've liked the feeling has developed once I got to know them.

Who do you find attractive? Not necessarily in a looks way, but in a really personal, you fancy their personality way? If you can identify what makes others sexually attractive to you then you can maybe turn it around to yourself.

Dinosaurs, honestly - I don't think it's anything to do with my personality. Most people seem to think I am rather nice

Cosmetic surgery unfortunately wouldn't really help as I don't have any specific issues or areas - I don't have a large nose or ears for instance. I have extremely short legs (to the point of needing driving adjustments) but these can't be corrected through cosmetic surgery, and a face that is just - wrong! I am overweight but only marginally so. But even when I've been right in the midst of a healthy BMI I've had no interest.

Honestly - I wasn't necessarily looking for solutions as I don't believe there are any. I don't want to keep on about my looks; it's just sometimes it is nice to have a vent!

OP, do you want to have sex? Again, sounds a bit to the point, but I wonder whether you've been holding off for The Perfect Person/ Relationship.
Would you say you're a perfectionist?

I second the previous poster who asks whether you flirt. I expect that learning to flirt would make all the difference (as an aside, does anyone remember Petra something who used to be flirting consultant on Richard and Judy?). I'm sure you can go on flirting courses. I was out with a friend last weekend who is very flirtatious (with both men and women, so nothing sleezy or sexual about it). She just is very engaging, fun, touchy-feely and has that 'twinkle' that makes you feel special.

Would newspaper ads (e.g. Guardian Soulmates) be a better medium to find the kind of man you are looking for?

Have not read the whole thread so sorry if this has been suggested.
Have you ever thought about hiring an image consultant and perhaps seeking some advice about how to make the most of what you have? A close friend of mine was very much like you and she decided to really go for it and see what she could do. She had her hair coloured and cut in a really top notch salon, had her eyebrows done, make up lessons and advice about right colours etc. She hired someone to go shopping with her to advice on clothes, styles etc. She looked incredible and it gave her such a boost. Obviously she was not walking out of the door groomed to within an inch of her life every day but she certainly changed the types of clothes she was wearing and wore make up that really accentuated her good facial features.
Obviously not for everyone but something to consider perhaps

I know you've had a lot of advice already op but I wanted to contribute. You sound like a really nice intelligent person. I am middling attractive but I've always had boyfriends I think because I know how to flirt. I have a friend who is honestly gorgeous but she never ever gets approached as IMO she never gives off any signals to men. Could you go on a flirting course?

Secondly, if you have a good job could you stretch to employing a reputable match maker? They could give you impartial advice which would hopefully set you on the right path. If it was matching you up with other professionals that might work.

Please don't give up. I hope good things are around the corner for you.

Have there been men that you have fancied but they have not been interested in you? Or are you not meeting people that you find attractive either?

Practice flirting with everybody - friends - male and female - older people (they love it !). Keep doing it until it feels natural. Smile - everyone looks better when they smile - especially when they mean it. Try and be a bit more lighthearted - life is for living and we only get this one chance. If you don't meet anyone think about things that you can do to make yourself happy anyway - relish your freedom to do what you want when you want. Live your life the best way you can. Things happen when you're open to them and willing to take a few chances.

Yes I am quite jealous of the number of friends you have. I might be married but I certainly don't have as many friends...

Having said that, I've never really attracted men either. Not as a teenagers nor as a young adult.
Thinking back, one of the issues was more about the fact I never pickuped the signals that some men were indeed attracted to me.

I didn't realise that until I was actually married (I was the one to go after him rather than the other way around so there wasn't this 'is he keen about me' type if question if that make sense?).

Re body shape, I would say that some 'short' peole do get married even when they are considered disabled.
Some people with facial disfigurement do too.
So why not you?

I think the online dating world is notoriously harsh/shallow. Obviously I have no idea what you look like OP but love isn't just for beautiful people, as others have said you only need to look around to see that.

Why (other than looks) do you feel that you aren't able to connect with men other than as friends? You sound intelligent, witty and interesting but you have written yourself off purely based on your looks and there's no need to do so.

If you are giving out 'friend' vibes that's what you'll get, perhaps for whatever reason, men you meet don't think you're looking for a partner. My husband and I were friends for eight years before getting together, the time just had to be right, you fall in love with the person not their skin and bone structure.

I have met men I have found attractive and would have liked to have a relationship with.

I would like to have sex

I have tried - guardian; posh makeovers; gym memberships; personal trainers (with fitness being the aim rather than nailing a man but still!)

I don't flirt now as it is obviously embarrassing for the person on the receiving end.

I am moving towards acceptance. I spent my late teens and early twenties very keen to meet someone and it didn't happen. I then stopped caring as much when I bought my house 4 years ago and it still hasn't happened! Maybe it will but if it does it will be because of my personality not looks. I think most people meet their partners young and are sexually attracted to one another on the basis of looks; as people age and wrinkle lose that affection still remains of course.

I really hate the cliche 'there's someone for everyone' - but I do think there is an element of truth in it ..... (sorry - not a helpful thing to say).

But, I know that you can't sit around waiting for that special person forever. Although I have no experience of sole parenting through donor sperm I have read lots about it (I had fertility issues). If was single and wanting a child I would personally be going for it. Don't miss out on your dream of becoming a mother all for the want of a man !

Good luck to you OP. Life always has a funny way of all coming out good in the end x

This might come out wrong. Sorry if it does and I offend anyone. I never thought I would meet anyone. Even now I still thing men prefer pretty petit blondes. I am none of those. I went travelling, worked abroad with people from numerous nationalities. Suddenly I was desirable. Men from the Caribbean, South America and so many other places don't have the same ideals as British men. I met a wonderful man from the Caribbean who thinks I am beautiful and in turn had sort of helped me change my own mind about my appearance. So what I'm saying is travel. If you can't get abroad and meet local men, spend some timesomewhere multicultural, London probably, and you might be surprised.

I have done plenty of travelling but it would appear non British men think I'm every bit as repulsive as their English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish counterparts

Also, I have a male relative in his 30's who talks about himself in similar terms to you. He is average looking, I would say, and a lovely kind person, successful in his field. He is also a huge perfectionist and has a very idealised view of how a relationship should be and the 'type' of person he wants to be with. I don't know if you think there may be an element of that with you too?

My relative seems to think that any one that wants to be with him must have something wrong with them or be taking the piss, which is really sad.

I think the opposite - I think men are missing out on something awesome! Well, I'm not quite that arrogant! But I do have a lot to offer a relationship and family. Guess you just can't force it though, can you?

I can't believe you are repulsive! Please don't say that about yourself, you've obviously got so much going for you.

Many posters have suggested flirting but I agree with you, OP: it is embarrassing for the person on the receiving end (and makes the one on the giving end look ridiculous imo). I have never done it - and have had a boyfried and sex, etc. Knowing how to flirt and doing it is not a requirement.

Cross posted

Have you tried chatting the people in OD? Or do you wait?

Have you tried flirting or do you wait?

If people see you as stand offish in a rs sense and they never see you with anyone, they may well assume that is what you want.

I have friends to whom I am equally attractive, but they flirt competently, I do it badly, so they get far more men than I do in a club/pub scenario.

However, in OD i often make the opening line, if I go on a date I can chat happily so I do ok. But no one ever asjed ne out at school, or at uni or at work. Because in thise settings I give off a slightly inutimidating vibe or else a one of the lads vibe.

Plus I am very bad at picking up when people are interested, so I just assume they aren't and because of that guys assume I am not interested in them.

(Thats why OD works for me)

However, you sound more like social situations work for you but just need to work out how to turn from friend to possible partner.

However, it may be that you do not want to go down that route.
If you do not find romance, what do you want? How important are kids? Long term friendship? Your career? Other aspirations?

You are just relentlessly negative about yourself. I cannot believe that this doesn't come across in your demeanour when meeting men. You may as well cover yourself in barbed wire and be done with it.

You sound lovely! Agree with previous posters though that online dating can be really shallow though. I'd also agree with previous posters that to prioritise finding a partner you may be better placed in a bigger city (more places to meet more people -it's just maths really!), maybe also concentrate on forging relationships in slightly unconventional areas to the usual suggestions like gym/hobbies. What about an academic society related to your work field or a language class? And please please please don't think that 30 is too old. I've got several good friends who didn't meet their partners until their late thirties or early forties in one case. Without exception they are all very happy but have all admitted thinking it might never happen.