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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU in expecting her care costs to be paid from her income

207 replies

itdoesnthavetobethisway · 30/05/2015 14:10

Hi, I am a long time lurker, infrequent poster, especially after the security thing. I have posted on AIBU because of the traffic but am probably in the wrong place. I am a bit at my wits end.

My mother has been living with me and my family DP, DSs (7 and 2) for 10 years now. I have moved her around the country with me. For most of the time she has been well. 5 years ago she started getting confused and for the last year she has deteriorated badly with episodes of extreme agitation and getting extremely angry with me and DP.

My brother is an accountant. He has been looking after her financial affairs since our father passed away 15 years ago. My mother has an income of around £30,000. She has hardly needed this as I have supported most of her living costs but had used it for shopping trips. As she has become increasingly confused my brother has taken her credit card and PIN and used it at her request or for things she needed to do to sort out her own income.

My brother and I always had a verbal agreement that if she required care, we would use her funds to pay for this. In the mean time, I suspect he has been using her income for his own purposes.

In the last few weeks, she has deteriorated markedly and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. She is confused all day, agitated and unable to self care. She is now incontinent of urine and faeces.

I work full time in excess of 50 hours and so does my DP. My old nanny is now a family friend and has been visiting my mother and my new nanny has made meals for her, which she eats with the kids. DP works at home 2 days a week and sorts out hospital appointments, daily medication etc.

I have raised the issue of carers with my brother but he is refusing to use her funds to support this. DP and I are not in a position to pay for carers, as our budget is already stretched to the max with childcare requirements.

I don't think I am being unreasonable in asking for her income to be used for her care but I am really stuck about what I can do about it. He holds the purse strings completely and has even declined my request to buy some incontinence knickers, saying I should foot the bill or (when pushed) that we should split the cost. It seems that it's going to be uphill work just getting the basics for her care. I'd appreciate any advice.

OP posts:
butternut22 · 30/05/2015 14:38

You need to speak to adult social services and they have a duty to investigate financial abuse under safeguarding. They also have a duty to assess her care needs.

Thymeout · 30/05/2015 14:39

If there is any doubt about your mother's mental capacity, your brother cannot apply for power of attorney. The law has been changed. You now need an independent witness to her ability to make decisions, sign forms. And other close relatives must be informed.

Yy - see a solicitor asap. I think the case will be referred to the Court of Protection, if she is confused. And they will take over her financial affairs - and investigate her bank records.

GP and SS will be valuable allies in this.

What your brother has done is appalling.

ILoveMyCaravan · 30/05/2015 14:39

It may well be too late for anyone to get a Lasting Power of Attorney with your mother's current mental state. I suspect your brother does not already have it and he is effectively stealing from your mother. Please get legal advice asap.

Shakey1500 · 30/05/2015 14:39

You can challenge any power of attorney. If he already has it without your knowledge, you can report him for misuse of funds. The law is utterly behind you. Even moreso because you have been solely responsible for her care thus far.

You need to absolutely grab the bull by the horns, be assertive, contact him and ask him to tell you exactly where her finances stand, ask if he has POA. If he has tell him you want to see the ins and outs of a duck's arse and if he hasn't, tell him you'll be applying and need all bank documents, income documents scanned over to you NOW. And book an appointment with a solicitor on Monday morning.

UsedToBeAPaxmanFan · 30/05/2015 14:40

If your mum has deteriorated to the point that she lacks the capacity to make finacial decisions, then it is too late for her to initiate a PoA. You can only activate one that she has arranged previously.

It sounds as though ypur mum and brother have both taken advantage of you if you have been funding her living costs for the past ten years, and that your brother is now financially abusing your mum.

Ring your local adult social care team for advice and to report suspected abuse.

LindyHemming · 30/05/2015 14:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MammaTJ · 30/05/2015 14:41

You must apply for POA. He cannot refuse it, for practical reasons, that is her living with you and all expenses having until not come out of your pocket, it will probably easily be agreed that you do actually get it.

I really don't see how he would have any say in whether or not she gets care, he is not the one doing the hard slog day in and day out, is he?

If it was you saying no, then fair enough, you are looking after her.

Goldmandra · 30/05/2015 14:43

Don't mention anything to him. See a solicitor and get them to apply to the court of protection on your behalf. Don't involve him until you have to, e.g. to get documentation he holds.

namechangefortoday543 · 30/05/2015 14:46

If you contact SS raising your concerns for the well being of your DM and inform them she is longer able to make her own decisions then she will be fully assessed and if they feel she is vulnerable to abuse ( in this case financial/neglect) then your DB will have no rights in making any type of decision.

ginmakesitallok · 30/05/2015 14:46

YOU CAN'T APPLY FOR POA!!! POA is set up by someone before they lose capacity, and is then activated once they lose capacity.

Koalafications · 30/05/2015 14:46

Agree with other posters that you need to seek legal advice.

As for not even giving you her money to pay for incontinence knickers, FDS. What a prick.

Koalafications · 30/05/2015 14:46

*FFS

poshfrock · 30/05/2015 14:48

Power of Attorney can only be given by someone who has full mental capacity. This does not sound like your mother. You need to apply for a Deputy ship order via the Office of the Public Guardian. I think the current turnaround time is about 16 weeks and the cost is about £400 although this can (and shoukd) be paid from your mum's funds. You can make the application yourself although the forms are quite long. I would suggest that you need to see a solicitor ASAP. Your brother would need to be notified and he could raise an objection to your appointment but he would have to be prepared to go to court to do so. See a solicitor who specialises in the needs of the elderly. Age Concern have a panel of recommended solicitors who specialise in this area.

LaurieFairyCake · 30/05/2015 14:50

You don't need a solicitor or power of attorney.

You call social services and a social worker will come out and assess her needs and put a plan and carers in. They will also garner funds from her to pay for it and if (and by the sound of it she does) lacks capacity now all the financial stuff will be taken from her.

That way you don't need to confront your brother as you have had SS to assess her. The financial stuff is a side issue.

mamadoc · 30/05/2015 14:51

As others have said neither you nor your brother can apply for PoA. It is for your mum to grant it to whoever she wishes IF she has capacity. Some people with early Alzheimer's would still have capacity to do this others would not.

If she lacks capacity either of you can apply to the Court of Protection to be appointed deputy over her affairs. This is why you must report your suspicions to police or social services as then it will be on record and he will not be appointed. He might possibly be able to apply without your knowledge but he would need an opinion on her capacity from a Dr which they cannot give without seeing her.

If she lacks capacity then no-one can legally manage her affairs without either LPA or deputyship from the court so either way the current arrangement can't just continue.

Nellagain · 30/05/2015 14:54

Yes I agree with contacting social services but do it as a safeguarding concern as this is financial abuse from your brother.

Be aware however that as you dm technically has an income that if you state she needs case they are just as likely to send out a list of care agencies as she is supposed to be self funding. (Income over 23000/yr)

To be honest given that I really think you need to see solicitor ASAP and also tell gp what is going on and ask if there are services your dm could be referred to. The mental health team for elderly are usually pretty good source of support in these situations.
I really feel for you op. It's hard to get help when there is no money around but when there is it seems to make matters a lot harder.

kickassangel · 30/05/2015 14:55

You need legal advice and be prepared for a battle.

Your brother has acted illegally, although he will probably get away with it unless you want to pursue it.

You have two really difficult problems. 1. You need immediate and extensive care for your mother. 2. You need to get the money out of the hands of your brother.

Contact age concern and Alzheimer's charities for advice about the first, then a solicitor for the second.

I'm pretty certain that legally her income has to be used for care, and if your brother refuses to make it available he will be breaking the law (again).

You sound like a saint. I can't believe how supportive you've been for your mother while your brother steals her money and she thinks he's the golden child. You and your DH deserve medals.

LaurieFairyCake · 30/05/2015 14:57

Yes, her income must be used for care but SS will sort that by pursuing your brother for the money/garnishing it themselves.

They won't just send you a list of care agencies - they will arrange care and pay for it until the money can be garnished.

drudgetrudy · 30/05/2015 14:58

He can't get sole power of attorney without your Mum's consent-a doctor would also have to see her and confirm that she has capacity to make the decision. If her confusion is severe the court of protection will get involved.
If she does have capacity insist on joint power of attorney with your brother (not joint and several where he can act without your agreement).
What he is doing at present is financial abuse-go to a solicitor at the first opportunity.

Yeesss · 30/05/2015 14:59

If your brother does not gave a formal enduring power of attorney, now that your mother lacks capacity she is no long able to give him permission to run her financial affairs. You need to see a solicitor to get an order from the Court of Protection which will decide how to look after her affairs. It is nonsense for your brother to prevent the use of your mother's money for her personal care and it will be stopped.

Nellagain · 30/05/2015 15:01

Hope so laurie but think the op needs to be warned it may not be a straight forward phone call sadly. The last person I referred for care breakdown had
a list of care agencies and homes sent to them. Round here if they are self funding Social services aren't interested. The cuts have taken effect sadly.

mamadoc · 30/05/2015 15:03

If your mum has over 23,000 then social services will not arrange or fund care but they will still investigate a safeguarding issue.

You can get incontinence pads on the NHS via the GP or district nurse as it is a medical need(limited supply and choice)

The easiest thing for you to do is report the financial situation to anyone from the older people's mental health team who diagnosed her and they will investigate

If they are not involved then report to social services

Separately take your mum to a solicitor to sort out either LPA or CoP for the longer term. If you take her with you they will be able to take a view on her capacity

LaurieFairyCake · 30/05/2015 15:03

My SIL is an adult care social worker - with the level of care the OP us describing they will actually put in care (the double incontinence is the key) and not just send a list.

Yes, they're very overstretched Sad

ItsRainingInBaltimore · 30/05/2015 15:04

What?! Fucking hell….does he think that you have somehow benefitted financially from having your mother with you all these years or something? Did she sell her house and give money to you to buy a house for all of you? Otherwise I am struggling to see his logic….

I think you need to be prepared for a bit of a showdown over this. Are you able to access your mother's bank statements etc, to see where her money has been going? It sounds odd that he is ring fence her income for her ongoing care costs, which suggests he may have already earmarked it for some other expense that he needs to service….very dodgy indeed.

See a lawyer and don't be fobbed off.