AIBU in expecting her care costs to be paid from her income

[itdoesnthavetobethisway]

Hi, I am a long time lurker, infrequent poster, especially after the security thing. I have posted on AIBU because of the traffic but am probably in the wrong place. I am a bit at my wits end.

My mother has been living with me and my family DP, DSs (7 and 2) for 10 years now. I have moved her around the country with me. For most of the time she has been well. 5 years ago she started getting confused and for the last year she has deteriorated badly with episodes of extreme agitation and getting extremely angry with me and DP.

My brother is an accountant. He has been looking after her financial affairs since our father passed away 15 years ago. My mother has an income of around £30,000. She has hardly needed this as I have supported most of her living costs but had used it for shopping trips. As she has become increasingly confused my brother has taken her credit card and PIN and used it at her request or for things she needed to do to sort out her own income.

My brother and I always had a verbal agreement that if she required care, we would use her funds to pay for this. In the mean time, I suspect he has been using her income for his own purposes.

In the last few weeks, she has deteriorated markedly and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. She is confused all day, agitated and unable to self care. She is now incontinent of urine and faeces.

I work full time in excess of 50 hours and so does my DP. My old nanny is now a family friend and has been visiting my mother and my new nanny has made meals for her, which she eats with the kids. DP works at home 2 days a week and sorts out hospital appointments, daily medication etc.

I have raised the issue of carers with my brother but he is refusing to use her funds to support this. DP and I are not in a position to pay for carers, as our budget is already stretched to the max with childcare requirements.

I don't think I am being unreasonable in asking for her income to be used for her care but I am really stuck about what I can do about it. He holds the purse strings completely and has even declined my request to buy some incontinence knickers, saying I should foot the bill or (when pushed) that we should split the cost. It seems that it's going to be uphill work just getting the basics for her care. I'd appreciate any advice.

[rhnireland]

Firstly you should be very proud of yourself for taking care of someone who obviously wasn't as all that able to take care of you.

I would definitely, definitely recommend getting social services involved. For one thing they might be able to make some simple improvements to your mum and your families quality of life.

I also think your brother deserves a kick up the you know what. If his son is in private school that was his choice and with respect your mum could have passed away at any point and he'd still be in trouble about the fees.

You should have received an element of her income to support her living costs (i.e. I imagine your heating bill is higher because you're keeping your house warm for someone who is home all day)

My grandmother has dementia and honestly it has caused war amongst the family because the finances got quite messy in similar ways to yours and I would get everything sorted legally and fairly as quickly as possible.

Oh and if you feel guilty for a second STOP. You have done more than your brother has and for far less personal benefit.

[ChestyNut]

How awful OP

You must report this as a safeguarding concern re financial abuse.
She doesn't even have her own pension to be spent on her?!

Your brother sounds like a pig

[VivaLeBeaver]

Your brother is bonkers.

He won't use your mums money for it because he views the money as his so sees it as him paying for it? But he's happy for you to actually pay out your own pocket? Never mind the fact you're probably out of pocket on things like food and utilities by virtue of the fact she lives with you?

Social services will help as will Age Concern I think.

[CocktailQueen]

Yes, her income must be used for care but SS will sort that by pursuing your brother for the money/garnishing it themselves.

They won't just send you a list of care agencies - they will arrange care and pay for it until the money can be garnished.

No, they won't, Laurie. If the OP's mother has more than 23K in savings she will be self-funding and social services won't be interested or able to help.

OP, agree that a SS assessment needs to be done urgently. Has your mum seen the GP recently? Does he know about her situation?

[Carriemac]

OP you are doing a lovely thing for your mother in caring for her and you seem really unselfish. Your brother not so much :)

[VivaLeBeaver]

When my gran was alive and in a home her income paid for her fees.

The social worker allowed me to have her bank card and I was given a stern talking to about how I was expected to buy extras for her. Sweets, toiletries, hairdresser money, etc. that if it was felt either by SS or the care home that I was witholding money from her Id be in trouble.

[sadwidow28]

You won't get carer's allowance of you are earning over £100 week or working more than very part time hours

That is not true. I have just helped a friend apply for it (her MIL wanted her to). The caring must be a minimum of 35 hours per week (either in home or away from home e.g. shopping, cooking meals, washing/ironing etc.) The 35 hours of care MUST be delivered by a single person as it has to be claimed by an individual.

You are correct in saying that it is taxable income though.

In 2001 I received carer's allowance for my terminally-ill DH. I paid tax at 40% but that payment meant that we could afford 2 hours of additional care per day to help me with bed-baths etc.

[OrangeVase]

I could almost have written your post - except I do not live with my DM.
Have spoken to a solicitor and been told to try to sort it out without recourseto the law if possible but It looks as though I will have to go back and take the next step.

[sadwidow28]

I have spoken to a mum friend at school with a legal background. She is going to find a recommended solicitor for me.

Apparently, there are solicitors who are registered for POA in circumstances of dementia. I had to phone my friend (a solicitor) about 6 years ago to check out similar circumstances for a dear friend whose mother's dementia came as a rapid onslaught. My solicitor friend said that she was not authorised to do POA or will-making because she didn't hold the appropriate qualification. But she looked up appropriately-qualified solicitors for me - which I passed on to my dear friend - and all was sorted legally.

[mamadoc]

When your mum had capacity to make financial decisions it was up to her what she did with her money but now that she no longer does it is not OK to carry on as before. Her needs have changed and she is not aware of that or of how much it will cost to meet those needs. Your brother really must be aware of her lack of capacity given that he has seen her hallucinating and distressed.

When a person lacks capacity decisions have to be taken in their best interests. No-one is going to think that it is your mum's best interests to pay school fees instead of having incontinence pads and a care package whatever her previous wishes might have been.

If your brother realises the potentially very serious consequences to him of carrying on as he is I expect he will back down. He would be very stupid not to as it could mean a police investigation and disciplinary action from his professional body.

I can't really see how the school fees arrangement can continue. As someone else has said if that level of expenditure on someone else caused her assets to drop below the social services threshold it would certainly be seen as a 'deprivation of assets' ie social services would not fund her care even if her assets were below threshold because she would be seen as having deliberately disposed of them. They were silly not to have arranged things properly when she was well eg put assets in trust

[sadwidow28]

She has been mostly self caring for a long time

In terms of hygiene she has been self-caring, but NOT in terms of food, warmth and light. (Our 3 basics for living)

You have subsidised your mother's day-to-day living whilst your brother has garnished used her income for school fees.

It is time to get a bit stroppy!

Whilst you are applying for Carer's Allowance and Attendance Allowance, also consider Mobility Allowance. (Your GP helps with the latter.) If she is no longer trustworthy on buses, you need to have funds for taxis or you driving her around. Also, apply to your Local Authority for a Blue Badge.

Support for incontinence is usually via the NHS www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/can-i-get-incontinence-products-on-the-nhs.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=154

I got a mattress protector and 4 'small bed blankets' per day for terminally-ill DH. Prior to the nurse telling me that DH was 'entitled' to incontinence support, I was buying Pampers disposable changing mats. They saved me loads of washing.

[sadwidow28]

Op, I have just read your post at Sat 30-May-15 17:17:13

That has made me cry!

I was busy answering the practicalities of your thread and forgot about the emotional aspect. Your love for your mother shines through every post. You want the best for her - and you are pushing a stone up a hill.

Your heart is so large and so strong that you will come through this. You clearly have a supportive DP who is helping. Treasure him and hold him close.

Keep this thread going for as long as you want and we will help or hold your hand when needed.

[namechangefortoday543]

Don't get stroppy
Ask SS to assess your DM needs.
You are entitled to be present .
They will do a CHC assessment .
Even if she has considerable assets if her needs are considered part of health care she will not need to fund her entire care.
Stop listening to the get stroppy, go to a solicitor posters.

Social services will listen to you and protect her from the outset if you tell them you think she is vulnerable and being abused financially by your brother.

[sadwidow28]

Don't get stroppy

Don't hmm at me in an emoticon Namechange. I clearly meant it was time to get 'a bit stroppy' with the DB.

[UsedToBeAPaxmanFan]

cocktail queen just because someone has assets over £23500 doesn't mean they are self funding. They will have to pay the full cost of their care, but they can do this by being a full cost payer rather than a self-funder.

The cost is the same BUT the OP's mum (or the OP on her behalf) can ask the Local Authority's Older Peoples Social Care Team to arrange the care, and then the Local Authority will bill the person being cared for to recover the costs. Lots of people prefer to do that so that the hassle if arranging care is taken away from them.

This only applies in England - there are different arrangements for Scotland.

[namechangefortoday543]

I can all I like thanks sad
I deal with these situations every day in my work.
Getting stroppy doesnt work.
Everyone thinks they can be stroppy and intimidate others but its all hot air.
Ask for a CHC checklist- she might qualify on healthcare needs - ie the diagnosis of dementia is causing her ability to care for her self to be impaired.

[yehbutnobutyeh]

OP, wanted you to know am thinking of you. My Mum has cared for my Nan with similar needs for many years and I have seen the toll it can take. I am glad you have a lovely DP and I hope you get the support you need. There is never a perfect solution but please look after yourself too

[CocktailQueen]

cocktail queen just because someone has assets over £23500 doesn't mean they are self funding. They will have to pay the full cost of their care, but they can do this by being a full cost payer rather than a self-funder.

The cost is the same BUT the OP's mum (or the OP on her behalf) can ask the Local Authority's Older Peoples Social Care Team to arrange the care, and then the Local Authority will bill the person being cared for to recover the costs. Lots of people prefer to do that so that the hassle if arranging care is taken away from them.

This only applies in England - there are different arrangements for Scotland.

Well, Paxmanfan, DH and I have just done though all this to have MIL assessed for a care home, and at no point over the past two years has SS done this or recommended this or mentioned this.

We were left on our own entirely.

But this is just splitting hairs - the op's mum won't be funded. And God, we had enough hassle finding a good care agency to deliver care before MIL went into a home. God knows what the council would have come up with. They move at the speed of a snail.

[UsedToBeAPaxmanFan]

cocktailqueen there are different arrangements for Care Homes, whereby people with assets over 23,500 have to sort it out themselves. However , the OP was talking about a care package to deliver care at home, which can be arranged through the Local Authority.

However, I think we are in danger of derailing the thread.

The important thing, OP, is that your mother is potentially experiencing financial abuse and this can be dealt with via the Local Authority.

[pluCaChange]

Even if your mother "wants" to pay her GS's fees, she can't afford to. Too bad, and actually a very fine sign of financial incapability!

[drudgetrudy]

It won't help to get stroppy with your brother but I wonder if sending him an email to start a paper trail might help.

Dear Bro,
I understand that you and your wife were unable to help out with Mum this week.
As you will have become aware her need for care is increasing and I am no longer able to cope alone. I will need to arrange extra care for her and will be contacting Social Services for advice. She also has needs for extra expenditure for aids and continence equipment.
All this is going to have financial implications and I need to be able to access her money to cover her expenses.
I do think that it is time to make a formal arrangement for POA and that we need to see a solicitor etc..


If he replies in a negative way or does not reply you would be able to show the solicitor that you have made an attempt to resolve things and would be able to move on to the next steps.

[Thymeout]

I think, too, you need to be taking the long view. It will not be possible for your dm to stay at home with visiting carers while you and your dp work. If she is mobile, she will not be safe as her condition deteriorates.

In order to fund residential care, she may have to sell the property that provides her income. If care costs exceed her income, then either someone has to top it up, or the property has to be sold. It doesn't sound as if either you or your brother is in a position to do this. If the property is sold, then the capital is used until it reaches the £23,600 threshold. Residential care for dementia patients is much more costly and it is v difficult to get NHS continuing care for those cases.

So any arrangements that you manage to make now, may very soon be irrelevant. You need to think ahead - and so does your brother, because his son may well have to move schools mid-sixth-form, if your dm needs to go into residential care. No property, no £30,000 p.a. for school fees.

[BlessedAndGr8fulNoInLaws4Xmas]

This is financial abuse.

You need to ring your local social services and explain your mother needs safeguarding as a vulnerable adult.

You MUST do this. To omit doing this is will I'm afraid make you little better than your brother.

Sorry to sound harsh but this is extremely serious.

[TracyBarlow]

Crikey OP.

While your mother's cash has been funding your DN's school fees, you have been funding your mother's day to day life. So you've been indirectly paying for your nephew to have a private education while your children go to a state school.

Your brother is abusive, no doubt about it. You are a saint. I'd be seeking legal advice immediately.

Aside from the fact you can't afford her care, if she has an income then social services won't fund it either. She will need to use her money to fund it (depending on the level/ type of care obviously).

What kind of lowlife son puts his son's private education over the needs of his mum for incontinence pads? What an utter bastard.

[MidniteScribbler]

I've nothing more to say that hasn't already been said.

Your brother is a fucking arsehole.

Take care of yourself OP.