AIBU in expecting her care costs to be paid from her income

[itdoesnthavetobethisway]

Hi, I am a long time lurker, infrequent poster, especially after the security thing. I have posted on AIBU because of the traffic but am probably in the wrong place. I am a bit at my wits end.

My mother has been living with me and my family DP, DSs (7 and 2) for 10 years now. I have moved her around the country with me. For most of the time she has been well. 5 years ago she started getting confused and for the last year she has deteriorated badly with episodes of extreme agitation and getting extremely angry with me and DP.

My brother is an accountant. He has been looking after her financial affairs since our father passed away 15 years ago. My mother has an income of around £30,000. She has hardly needed this as I have supported most of her living costs but had used it for shopping trips. As she has become increasingly confused my brother has taken her credit card and PIN and used it at her request or for things she needed to do to sort out her own income.

My brother and I always had a verbal agreement that if she required care, we would use her funds to pay for this. In the mean time, I suspect he has been using her income for his own purposes.

In the last few weeks, she has deteriorated markedly and has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. She is confused all day, agitated and unable to self care. She is now incontinent of urine and faeces.

I work full time in excess of 50 hours and so does my DP. My old nanny is now a family friend and has been visiting my mother and my new nanny has made meals for her, which she eats with the kids. DP works at home 2 days a week and sorts out hospital appointments, daily medication etc.

I have raised the issue of carers with my brother but he is refusing to use her funds to support this. DP and I are not in a position to pay for carers, as our budget is already stretched to the max with childcare requirements.

I don't think I am being unreasonable in asking for her income to be used for her care but I am really stuck about what I can do about it. He holds the purse strings completely and has even declined my request to buy some incontinence knickers, saying I should foot the bill or (when pushed) that we should split the cost. It seems that it's going to be uphill work just getting the basics for her care. I'd appreciate any advice.

[Handsoffmysweets]

Sorry if my post was a bit confusing Thyme. I meant OP taking her mother to the bank to cancel cards/PINs/any other form of access to the account that her brother may have created. This is something the bank would do providing OP took her mother with her as the account holder is present. Any COP does of course need to go through the correct legal channels first.

[ApeMan]

*There is no way any person has your mother's best interests at heart when they will deny her basic personal hygiene and comfort related items from her own money.

• sorry that's what happens when you decide to change nouns and pronouns and aren't paying sufficient attention.

[ApeMan]

Contact a solicitor.

There is no way any person is has her best interests at heart when they will deny her basic personal hygiene and comfort related items from their own money.

It is an affront to rights and dignity.

[Thymeout]

Handsoff - I agree, but think the OP might find it difficult to get the bank to take action without some sort of legal backing. Is the Alzheimer's diagnosis in writing?

As things stand, her dm voluntarily handed over the management of her account to her ds. She wanted him to use her money to pay for her dg's fees. OP says that if she were asked, in a lucid moment, she would say she wanted the arrangement to continue. As far as the bank is concerned, she has no legal status over her dm's finances. It would be better coming from a solicitor.

So solicitor first. And asap. They can advise on further steps. I think, since OP and her DP have been dealing with medical matters, they now have a duty to disclose the dementia diagnosis to officials involved with her mother, which would include the bank.

Was the diagnosis made by her GP? It might be a good idea to inform him that you are consulting a solicitor about dm's capacity.

[Handsoffmysweets]

Morning OP, I've had a chance to read a few more posts and it looks like you've had some great advice from PP. One thing I would be careful of before involving solicitors, emailing him etc is providing him with too much info. Is there a chance that if your brother thinks his access to funds may be limited that he will transfer the whole lot out of the accounts and into his own name? It's just a thought, but perhaps before you get the ball rolling with formal arrangements, you should cut his access to your mothers accounts via the bank. As I mentioned in my pp unfortunately previous experience has shown me that in some cases when relatives think they are about to be caught, they tend to go into panic mode and drain the account to ensure they still have access to funds.

[jacks11]

I'm not a solicitor, but do have to deal with these problems occasionally (Dr). Prepperpig is right- now your mum has Alzheimer's which sounds serious enough to affect her capacity and make her unable to make decisions for herself, she will not be able to agree to giving your brother (or anybody else) PoA. This means the only option would be guardianship, which is awarded by the court.

I agree that you need to see a solicitor urgently- this needs sorted out so that all parties know where they stand and, more importantly, your mum's best interests are safeguarded.

If your brother won't agree to use her funds to pay for her care and other needs (clothes, toiletries) then he is not acting in her best interests and I imagine social services (who are usually involved when a guardianship request is being made) would take a very dim view of it.

[chairmeoh]

Before you commit to your former nanny coming in to help, make sure it is very clear that the bills are to be sent directly to your DB and he will be paying.

As to the rest, wow! He's a shitty shit. His DW is keeping low because she doubtless knows how much she's gained from your good nature over the past 10 years.

For your DMs sake (although she appears to have been complicit in the financial abuse you have been subjected to), you must fully disclose to her GP, solicitor,SS, safeguarding team to name but a few.

[Figmentofmyimagination]

You might be too late to get a finance power of attorney (if your mum lacks capacity) but you might still have a window of opportunity if you act quickly and have a sympathetic gp. We got my mum signed up to a poa when she had dementia but still knew everything she was doing "in the moment". She had no short term memory. It's a bloody good thing we did it as we have been able to pay for her care, manage the bills for her empty home etc very straightforwardly.

If you leave it to late you will have to go to the court of protection? Extremely expensive and v complicated.

The fact that your brother hasn't sought a legit poa is itself worrying.

You can apply for a poa without involving him.

Then you will have power over her finances and the bank will only deal with you.

Without a poa your hands are completely tied.

[bobs123]

Hi OP - I think some of the posters are missing the point slightly. To put into context:

1. Your mother has been funding school fees for her grandchild. This is normal in a lot of cases, and as long as this is counted as regular gifts out of income, should not be caught by the 7 year rule in Inheritance Tax.
   

However, if your brother has been helping himself to other random amounts, and the whole lot comes to more than 325K, then he will eventually be expected to pay inheritance tax on that amount. (See here . This is where it gets tricky and potentially illegal. Has it really needed all your Mum's income for your nephew? Is he at boarding school?

1. If it the case that your family has a much more comfortable lifestyle than you're brother's, then this could be why your Mum is doing this. Not necessarily fair, but then it's her money. And perhaps you never asked for anything as you could afford her expenses. You haven't actually complained about having to pay up to now.
   

1. Now things are different. You need the money. The old nanny idea sounds good to begin with, with a view to going into a care home eventually.
   

Out of interest, how old is your nephew? School fees don't last for ever.
I would certainly not let her change her will considering her state of mind.
I would be interested in knowing the contents of her will
I would want to see her bank statements
How do you know how much income she has? you say it is from rent and pension. If there are other assets are they still there?

It sounds like your brother is seeing sense, but it also sounds like he is bricking it a bit too.

Hope you get it sorted

[Mini05]

Your brother has ripped your mother off

Just exactly what does he pay for out off her money? If he's arguing with your about incontinence knickers!
Do you receive your mothers government pension? To keep her or does brother get that also?

You should also be claiming AA(attendance allowance) for people over 60 who need extra help. This would help to pay for carers to come in and help.

Definitely get in touch with SS as said above to get the power off him spending your mums money.

[CarrotVan]

And inform your mother's solicitor about her diagnosis, raise a report with Social Services about the financial abuse of an elderly vulnerable adult, and call the police.

Your brother is a shit

Social Services can be absolutely amazing and they really can help

[Grumpyoldbiddy]

Im not sure if this has been said before but you need to contact social services (or go though the GP) to ask for a referral for an assessment with a memory team and a social care assessment.

When this happens, ask for a carers assessment and raise your concerns about your mum's money. Tell them exactly what you have said on here.

This may trigger a safeguarding assessment which means that the possibility of financial abuse (what your brother is doing), is looked into. This will take the matter out of your own hands so you don't have to get into a dispute with your brother.

From there they will look at best interests and power of attorney.

[CarrotVan]

Contact Social Services and request an urgent care assessment for your mother and a carer's assessment for you. There is a legal requirement for them to provide this and it is needs blind

If your mother is assessed as needing care (and she will be) then Social Services will draft a care plan and complete a financial assessment. Your brother will need to co-operate with this or he will be be leant on by the courts.

If your mother is assessed as self-funding (and she will be) then Social Services will either act as a broker and find care for her which is paid for via them or direct. Or they will give her guardian/ next of kin a list of appropriate care providers or charities/agencies that will broker the care for her.

Contact the Carers Trust/AgeUK for information on attendance allowance etc that you might be entitled to.

The reason I suggest you should get a Carers Assessment is because any costs incurred from your assessed needs as a carer count towards your personal lifetime care costs cap.

[pluCaChange]

Why did your mother start living with you in the first place? Wasn't there an agreement (or a reason, like ill health) those 10 years ago? It seems odd that you just took her in. Was she showing signs of dementia even then? I can't believe that this situation has NOT been going on for a lot longer than you indicate, and it's ereally time for you to stop paying for BOTH your mother and your brother's family. You can't afford this, and neither can your mother.

[Handsoffmysweets]

Haven't read all posts OP so apologies if I x post but didn't want to read and run.

Having worked for a bank previously, I would say that your first port of call should be to the bank that look after your mums money. I really don't want to scare you but if he has the card and PIN and knows a lot of your mums personal details there is nothing stopping him setting up online banking and transferring funds to his own account. I have lost count of the amount of times some poor elderly person was brought in by a concerned neighbour/friend/relative only to find they had been bled dry by the very person/people they'd given birth to and brought up. It really is quite disgusting what money does to some people.

Sit in that bank until someone lends a sympathetic ear and cancels the cards, PINs and any online facility that has been set up. Tell them you are in the process of obtaining Court of Protection but action needs to be taken immediately. Better still, could you take your mum into the bank with you so that they can see she is no longer in a position to manage her finances? This will ensure you don't get the old 'can't discuss, data protection etc' as your mum will actually be there with you.

As other posters have said, you then need to contact SS for more advice and notify the police that you think a crime may be taking place. I always found SS really got on their backs when money had been stolen from elderly people and together with the bank, prosecutions occurred in most cases I dealt with.

Your brother sounds like a nasty piece of work OP. You on the other hand sound like a lovely lady who is just trying to do the best for her mother. Karma is a bitch. If he's been stealing from your mother, he may come to realise that very soon.

[Kitsmummy]

Oh Op I am absolutely raging on your behalf...at your brother who is a prick of the highest order and, to a degree, at your mum too...she doesn't deserve you //sad

[jollygoose]

op you are truly amazing but you need help and you need it fast! I havebeen in a similar situation recntly and social services took over and were extremely helpful. Her own surgery should be able to start the ball rolling. Your brother want shooting imo.

[youarekiddingme]

Who is going to fund your old nanny coming in to do the care?

[drudgetrudy]

I know that your income will prevent you from being eligible for Carer's allowance but your Nanny may be eligible if she takes on the care.
However I do agree with the people saying that care at home might not be possible for very long and that you need to begin looking at Nursing Homes.

[RandomMess]

Please start seeking a suitable care home for her now because it will take time to find one where the care and location is suitable that you are happy with and there may be a waiting list. Even if you end up with a list of ones you'd be happy with and ones that are unsuitable there will be a time when she will need to be in one.

Your mum could live for very many more years and the toll on you as she continues to deteriorate will be huge and unfair on your dc.

Yes speak to her and your solicitor about her diagnosis immediately.

[Thymeout]

She may be only 75, but I know someone of 72, who has sadly progressed from two episodes of confusion, seemingly connected to UTI's, 6 months ago, to complete mental regression into the past. Physically, he can no longer walk or feed himself.

What does your db say about residential care? I think it's totally unrealistic to think you will be able to keep your dm at home just with people popping in. My dm had dementia for 5 years, but it was never as extreme as the incident you described, and she was unable to walk more than a step or two unsupported, couldn't get into danger with appliances or wander out of the house, so we were able to cope with visiting carers 4 times a day.

Regarding her solicitor, I think he certainly needs to know about the diagnosis. Could you ask your solicitor to inform him as part of the application for Deputy guardianship? If she's too ill to manage her affairs, she's too ill to change her will. It would be open to challenge after her death.

Have you discussed the PoA/Application for guardianship with your brother? Someone will need a PoA or equivalent, given her mental condition, in order to sign stuff for care agreements, house sale, etc. You need to register it with banks etc. This really needs to be done asap, because it takes time for it to go through and you don't want her account frozen while it's sorted.

It would be better if the two of you could apply together. Have recent events changed your brother's view of her mental capacity and future needs?

[Gnomic]

I feel for you OP. I'm in a slightly similar situation with my DB and aged relative. It's not pretty, and in the process I've learned a lot of things I don't much like about my DB, to the point where I am choosing to have less and less contact with him. I remain astonished that there are people who would rather line their own pockets than allow their aged relatives to have their own money spent on their needs for comfort and safety, let alone that one of these is my own brother.

To echo others, get legal advice, involve Adult Social Care, protect your mother and act in her best interests. Age UK are good, and many council areas have carers' support groups. It's all terrifically complicated but you will find a way through it all.

Don't take all the caring on yourself; you won't be able to manage it with the best will in the world, and will merely break yourself in the attempt, doing her no good at all. I have POA, carers in place, and support from everywhere I can get it, and it's still no picnic keeping her well and living independently.

Incidentally, carer's allowance is means tested so very few people actually get it if they're working alongside caring.

[kickassangel]

I think you should keep her solicitor as well informed as you can. No professional person would want to get caught up in the potential problems caused by your brother using her money and refusing her care. If he's also possibly going to coerce a change in will, then the solicitor needs to know.

If you don't, and the will gets changed, then you I could be seen as complicit in this, even if it's to your detriment. A solicitor worried that they mistakenly allowed a will change when they shouldn't would have no hesitation in naming/blaming you as well as your brother.

You have a diagnosis, and you now have to act in your mothers best interests under that new piece of information. Don't get caught up in your brothers twisted thinking and scheming. He is on incredibly shaky ground. Stick absolutely to what SS and solicitors advise, and keep records. This is in your mothers and your best interests.

[drudgetrudy]

Protect yourself-tell her solicitor about her diagnosis so that he will liaise with her GP before changing anything. Do you think your Mum would have been so unreasonable before the dementia started?

Her condition may deteriorate rapidly- but if she is 75 this could also be a long drawn out process.
One's perspective changes-now that my Mum is 95 and I am in my 60s 75 is starting to sound relatively young!

Set your boundaries now or this could impinge heavily on your life into the time where either yourself or your husband begin to have your own health problems.

Work on creating a situation that is fair to your Mum but also fair to yourself, your husband and your children. You are far from being grasping and you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about (your brother, on the other hand....).
If you ask your old Nanny claim attendance allowance, carers allowance and inquire with SS about direct payments (not sure how your Mum's income would affect that).

[Goldmandra]

It is perfectly reasonable to contact her solicitor and inform them of her diagnosis as I'm sure they wouldn't want to be seen as participating in the financial abuse of an elderly person. If you have a copy of the diagnosis in writing, send that so it is clear that it is fact.

You have clearly tolerated an enormous amount of unreasonable behaviour, if not abuse, from your mother and your brother over the years and I think this is preventing you from seeing yourself as having rights in this process. Please make sure you paint a very clear picture in the assessment when it happens and agree only to arrangements that permit you to have a decent quality of life.