to compare being a parent who smokes to a parent on heroin

[candidkate]

My friend smokes, she has a DD, she was talking about Peaches Geldof and how selfish she was for being on heroin and thus overdosing in an (alleged) suicide attempt.

I then said (nicely I promise) lets not judge other moms especially celebs who we know nothing about. Substance abuse is a huge demon and considering the fact that you have a fag attached to your hand 80% of the time I'm sure you can relate to having a demon and still loving your kids!

She then said "How can you compare" the two

I said that drug use has a much uglier face than fags but fags kill way more people every year and in proportion to heroin usage probably just as many as its users. I also pointed out that just because she smokes her death stick in a nice zara coat and some drug addicts are homeless and scruffy doesn't mean one is more acceptable as a parent than the other. Both puts your child and yourself at risk. Both are slowly killing you.

Now bare in mind I am fully aware that people will prostitute themselves and be in and out of prison for drugs. I am aware of the horrid social aspect that comes with it....but this was relevant to the argument as we were speaking about peaces geldof who i doubt pimped her kids and took them to crack houses and let them starve.

So the main focus on the argument was health. In that regards I stand by what i said ..... health wise...can a parent puffing away really judge a parent snorting a few lines / shooting up?

In my view...smoking just kills you slower than smack and is legal.

midnight1983 I think they can judge their parenting but both are putting their health at risk...one just has an uglier face....or no?

"No one would say "You piece of shit smoker you're in a wheelchair you cant run around with your kids and do xyz""

Well quite, no-one would outright say that..............they may say.....

"How can you be a good active parent when you cannot walk without a nebulizer, are wheelchair bound"......(rest of the sentence is not relevant so have removed)

Well I'm inclined to agree with you then to be honest.

She put her unborn child at huge risk because of her addiction so I'm surprised she can't relate to Peaches in even some small way.

Haven't read all the thread but the heroin addicts who I used to know would...shoplift, steal off anyone, sell the clothes off their backs, be unable to look after their kids. Their whole lives revolved around getting their fix.
Theyre in their own world. I remember years ago two heroin addicts lived across the road from DSL, they broke into her house Christmas Eve and stole the new bikes and presents. Just so they could feed their habit, to hell with everyone else. Don't see fag smokers doing that.

Smoking will kill you, very often when you are about 70 after 10 or so years of increasingly poor health.

Heroin can kill you pretty quickly. A strong batch, an air bubble into your vein, an accidental overdose etc...

Smoking does not impair your day to day judgement. It won't lead you to neglect your responsibilities. It does not go hand in hand with a chaotic lifestyle maybe involving criminalisation and hanging around/associating with real dodgepots.

Smoking is really addictive and I am someone who has been off fags for 6 weeks so I know the pull and struggle to give up something that your body relies on. And it is smelly, and it is a waste of money. But it can't be compared to a heroin addiction and the lifestyle that goes with that.

How sad is it to be so addicted to fags that you smoke while your oregnant.

12% of pregnant women are smokers at the time of delivery. It is sad. What is also sad is that MN is not a very safe place for these women to seek help because of people's incredibly judgmental attitudes.

at any PG smokers lurking - come on over to the stop smoking section - no judgment just lots of support, encouragement and helpful advice

I bet your friend did give a shit, OP. Pregnant smokers tend to feel very guilty if they can't quit. Many hide it or, if that is not possible, they brazen it out as I suspect your friend did.

yabu and totally ridiculous. And I hate smoking for the record.

Both are bad, no doubt. But taking heroin, or similar, is dangerous for parent and child in a way that smoking isn't; emotionally, mentally, physically as well as by creating a social stigma as well as a mentally scarring stigma for a child who has to deal with their parent being a 'smack head' and possibly being exposed to addiction themselves via in utero exposure - smoking while pregnant is risky but doesn't cause addiction in newborns and doesn't mean that newborns have to take medications. You also hae to take Into account long term mental health issues connected with neglect, abuse and being in care etc that's often a result of your parent being an addict. Smoking doesn't tend to cause any of these things.

OP your posts are funny. I suspect you don't know many heroin addicts though. I've known a few, including my own brother. I wouldn't entrusted any one of them with a goldfish, let alone a child. Loving them isn't enough you see, you have to be able to prioritise their needs above your own.

Smoking - I hate smoking. But I've yet to meet a smoker who leaves their toddler to starve whilst they hunt up the next packet of cigarettes.

OP

I understood what you were meaning - you probably could have said it better but I certainly didn't read it as grossly harsh and judgmental as some - but if you had posted this somewhere other than AIBU you would not have found yourself as heavily roasted. Taking things completely out of context and accusing OPs of performing various permutations of lying when they try to clarify is a favourite tactic in this forum.

You are wrong when you state the death rates of smoking to other drugs though - it's the 'heaths per head/100/1000' that matter when figuring out how harmful a substance is.

YABU and either deliberately facetious or very idiotic. I am a max. 10 a day smoker. I may die 'young' perhaps in my 60's, and leave my DC in their adulthood, due to smoking, or survive to my 80's like my grandmother who was a one lunged 60 a day smoker until the day she died. Many smokers reach a ripe old age. Many non-smokers get cancer/lung disease.

I smoke in my garden only. Never inside, never in the street, don't bother anyone. I can go for most of the day without one. I have a lot of demons but would never touch drugs, even prescription, or alcohol (teetotal) as I would not put myself in a position where I may be not be fully cognizant and in control of my faculties when looking after my children. If I did not have enough money to buy cigarettes, I wouldn't buy them. It is a pointless, waste of money yes and a bit smelly but nothing on a par with illegal drug use, because that's right, smoking is legal and the reason for that is that it is not mind altering!

It is fairly certain though that a heroin user is risking their life each and every day they take it and is at risk of dying on any day they take it as it could be a bad batch, they have a bad reaction etc. They will also not be in complete control, would not be fit to drive, would certainly not be fit to parent similar to a heavy drinker. Cocaine use also costs a lot more, have not heard of many smokers stealing cars, holding up shops or mugging old ladies for their next fag.

I guess I'm wondering what the real purpose of your OP is, candidkate... It's not simply to say '... (I) just don't think drug addicts should be stereotyped or treated as pieces of shit with no feels incapable of loving their children' otherwise that would have been your OP. Instead it was directly comparing smoking tobacco and taking heroin...

Others have said all I think already, but I think BarbarianMum (18.08.08) puts best how I feel, as my late brother was also a heroin user. He was a wonderful person in many ways, but his heavy use in addiction and odd recreational use of heroin made him into a completely untrustworthy, unreliable, unpleasant and unpredictable man.
He was also a smoker, and the two things were just worlds apart. Comparing them is a bit odd and naïve, but if you want to go down that road, you can... I just can't take the comparison seriously, because it's way more complex and horrible than what your OP can encompass.

Of course, you (or anyone) could probably go down the same comparison route with me and my health (I'm obese, and was once addicted to valium).

OP, I just wonder, are you offering your own life up for the same level of comparison as the scrutiny that you give to your friends? (ie, You're having wine tonight I gather? What's that all about?- of course it's a silly thing to compare, or is it?)

No one's perfect are they?

because that's right, smoking is legal and the reason for that is that it is not mind altering!

I think the reason is more to do with the 12bn tax / year to the government. It would leave a bit of a budget hole if they banned it. Not to mention the pensions and elderly care crisis it would cause.

Yabvu - I have a heroin addict in my family and his life was totally destroyed. Thankfully no kids involved, but he is in his 60s and has no money, never had a steady job, no partner, has stolen from family and strangers, spells in prison etc. To compare how much he's missed out on to a smoker is completely ridiculous. He comes from a v middle class background as well so it's not just that poor people can't handle addiction! (Ffs!) heroin isn't bad just because it might kill you (my family member is in pretty good health and if you don't od or get aids heroin doesn't decrease your life expectancy) but because it's an addiction that takes over and overshadows everything else. Not the same as smoking, the occasional recreational use of cocaine, alcohol or any of the other things you've compared it to.

I used to live in a part of inner city Dublin that had a big big heroin problem and you are being spectacularly unreasonable. I feel sorry for your friend

My father is dying from addiction... But I do understand you, because I think people are very quick to compartmentalise addictions, as though the reasons you poison yourself with one substance are qualitatively different to the reasons someone else poisons themself with another substance, as though there were no commonalities in the experience.

The maintenance of addiction is all about avoiding uncomfortable or painful experiences.

It is just smoking continues usually because of difficulties tolerating craving and boredom, and serious addicts continue as they are usually finding it difficult to tolerate infinitely higher levels of craving and often masking underlying emotional pain, self loathing, rage to boot etc.

So frankly, if you can't get off fags, you've no business judging someone who has an Everest to climb in comparison to your wee molehill.

BarbarianMum You didnt read the OP...like many other people.

duplodon Thanks ... I'm fine to be told IBU but atleast over something I actually bloody wrote!! I clearly said we were not arguing about parenting or the social aspects of being on drugs just simply how horrid addiction is and how it doesn't mean you don't love your kids ....yet people keep on making up a post that doesnt exist...it's weird why do MNetters do this?

TooManyMochas IBU for saying that an addict can love their child and one addiction health wise and emotionally wise isn't more noble than the other?

Theycallmemellowjello Please read the OP i clearly said I'm not blind or stupid and i understand the difference in the social aspects of being in drugs. People do not prostitute themselves for fags. We all know that. I was saying do not judge peaches and her addiction as though it has anything to do with how much she loves her kids. And in this case perhaps even her parenting every addiction is different and effects people in different ways you may not be bothered to read the full thread but some people have been very brave and honest and have shared stories of their family members who suffered from addiction but made sure food was on the table every single night!

it's a difficult one.. tbh i'm not sure but leaning towards yabu, my dp smokes and he's a fantastic parent but yes i do sometimes think he is selfish for it.. but then again when smoking is so common and the consequences of it are a distant future i guess it's not a huge concern for a lot of smokers in the here and now.

ilovemargaretatwood No, no one is perfect so why does she have the right to judge someones addiction and sneer upon it when she has her own....Addiction is very very very very hard to beat whether its food drugs fags alcohol gambling....parenting is a whole other ball game but i think all parents have shortcomings and moms are too quick to judge! Thats all i was syaing to her dont bloody judge peaches when we all have our own damn demons!

ihatelego I don't judge parents who smoke parents who drink parents who stay at home parents who work as long as you do your job and your kids are safe and happy. Peaches had an addiction but seemed to be holding down the fort at home according to police her parents and her staff. The argument was in the context of judging addiction and being a parent as though having a demon means you don't love your kids. Where do you draw the line? Yes peaches was on drugs but her kids werent starving (and this is the case with many with addiction) she just had her own personal battle.

I think a lot of people posting don't have much of an idea what heroin is or how it affects you. Smoking will only cause minimal emotional damage to a child.

Heroin is more comparable to parenting dead drunk than it is to smoking. Even if you don't 'gauch out' all of the time you will sometimes and then your child will effectively be alone. It's more akin to walking out on your kids and getting on a bus and going shopping than nipping out the back door for a fag. Plus there will be periods of withdrawal which will be much more frightening than someone chewing on nicotine gum and being a bit snappy for a few days.