to compare being a parent who smokes to a parent on heroin

[candidkate]

My friend smokes, she has a DD, she was talking about Peaches Geldof and how selfish she was for being on heroin and thus overdosing in an (alleged) suicide attempt.

I then said (nicely I promise) lets not judge other moms especially celebs who we know nothing about. Substance abuse is a huge demon and considering the fact that you have a fag attached to your hand 80% of the time I'm sure you can relate to having a demon and still loving your kids!

She then said "How can you compare" the two

I said that drug use has a much uglier face than fags but fags kill way more people every year and in proportion to heroin usage probably just as many as its users. I also pointed out that just because she smokes her death stick in a nice zara coat and some drug addicts are homeless and scruffy doesn't mean one is more acceptable as a parent than the other. Both puts your child and yourself at risk. Both are slowly killing you.

Now bare in mind I am fully aware that people will prostitute themselves and be in and out of prison for drugs. I am aware of the horrid social aspect that comes with it....but this was relevant to the argument as we were speaking about peaces geldof who i doubt pimped her kids and took them to crack houses and let them starve.

So the main focus on the argument was health. In that regards I stand by what i said ..... health wise...can a parent puffing away really judge a parent snorting a few lines / shooting up?

In my view...smoking just kills you slower than smack and is legal.

My dad died from lung cancer and he was 66, started smoking at 12. I think that's the difference, most smokers won't see the effects that smoking has on their bodies until very late on and their children are adults or nearly adults. Heroine screws up your life early on.

CremeEggThief I was comparing the health aspects of the two and their potential to kill you. I was comparing that and that only because peaches had a lot of money and a nanny and obvious wasn't a ranting raving smackhead....

Can we all please stick to the health aspect of things I clearly said in the post that's what it was about we all know the difference socially between smoking and come on guys don't make up a post that does not exist

Are you actively trying to be offensive or does it just come naturally? I have a spinal injury and sometimes have to use a wheelchair. Your insinuation that less physically able people are not as good parents as their more able counterparts is disablist and bloody rude.

PlentyOfPubeGardens That's not judging that's saying live and let live we all have our demons why is one more acceptable (health wise) than another? Some of these posts make smoking seem like a lollipop every Wednesday how strange.

David Nutt is interesting on the relative harms of different drugs.

Oooh arent you controversial OP?

Comparing a cig to heroin AND valium to coke.

Do you like to think your a bit of a Howard Stern type?

#fail

I think you've just chosen an odd argument to make here.

By using smoking (widely regarded as a choice) it sounds like you're saying "Smoking = choice, also addiction, heroin = addiction, therefore smoking, so heroin = choice."

I understand you're not saying that but that's how it comes across. It's not making up words that don't exist, it's just how most people will follow your argument.

What you're actually saying is that heroin addiction is a disease (fair, but not shared by everyone) but you've come at it from the angle of nicotine addition also being a disease, which just isn't close to how most people view it, particularly smokers.

Can you see what I mean? It's backwards. You've taken your own views on smoking and heroin and conflated them (which is fine if that's your view but again not everybody will agree) but you've then taken smoking as the starting point, completely ignoring or missing that your position on smoking is hugely out of whack with most other peoples' opinions on smoking. So when you say "It's just like smoking, smoking does as much damage" it looks like you're saying "Smoking is as bad as heroin". Most people hold the view that heroin users are bad parents (whether they're ill or not I think it's fair to say an active user is unlikely to be able to put their DC first) so the implied judgement is that smokers are bad parents.

You might not mean to say that but this is what you are implying.

Heroin has a very profound psychological effect : it minimises the impact of the outside world. The cushioning effect is part of it's appeal for the user - bit part of the heartbreak for those who are trying to reach them/are I relationships with the user.
It's a major reason why it's hard to kick heroin - why would you? It gives you (the feeling of) everything you could ever want in this mortal life.
No love could ever compare.
Now, imagine being someone who needs the fully-present attention of a heroin user.
OP, you are really naive.
It must be shit trying to come off heroin as mother. Everything is ing you to do it - but it's incredibly, incredibly hard.

Comparing cigarettes to heroin has its place - it's really hard to quit smoking. Probably harder than quitting ack, actually, just because of the ubiquity of triggers and ease of supply.
However, in terms of effect on relationships and psychology - there is no comparison at all.

hedgehogsdontbite ......there we go again making up things. I'm clearly saying that every addiction has it downfall. Every battle has an aspect which will affect your parenting. Unlike many of you posters who have no sympathy or empathy or people suffering from drug addiction I think everyone deserves compassion which was the whole point of the bloody post. Peaches deserves as much respect as someone who is battling giving up fags...or is in on a nebulizer because they can't breathe as a consequence of their addiction. Why is it okay to judge a crack addict with missing teeth and dirty clothes, but not someone who smokes and thus suffers from all the things i mentioned are more deserving of pity?

Also, I think you sound like a from 'friend'.
And, frankly, a bit stupid.

Nobody is making up things. They are reacting to what you are saying. I don't think it's coming out as you mean it to!

I get where you are coming from but I think you've presented the argument really badly. Also, its a completely pointless argument anyway, why bother comparing the two at all? There are so many variables, you are being as reductionist as your friend in the need to equate the two. They are different, neither mean you are necessarily a worse or better parent as there are too many individual factors to consider, but they are certainly not 'the same' in terms of potential risk of premature death.

YABU. You come across as sanctimonious and judgemental and ignorant if you said that to me (I don't smoke anymore, though), I'd have told you how rude you are and then got your out of my life.

Smoking doesn't kill everyone who does it.

Can we all please stick to the health aspect of things I clearly said in the post that's what it was about we all know the difference socially between smoking and come on guys don't make up a post that does not exist

Nope. 'We' can do whatever we like as long as we adhere to Talk Guidelines, bossy boots.

OK. It looks as though I wAs the stupid one and mis-read you OP.

You're saying all addictions are hard to beat? And people trying to beat them deserve sympathy?

Yes, I agree with that.

Why is it okay to judge a crack addict with missing teeth and dirty clothes, but not someone who smokes and thus suffers from all the things i mentioned are more deserving of pity?

What about judging someone who could cook from scratch every night but can't be arsed so feeds their kids crap 5 nights a week? Or someone who could lose a few stone so they'd be able to run around the park with their kids but can't be arsed? Those are all battles which affect your parenting. Should we be taking pops at all of them as well?

You are making ridiculous straw man arguments. I'm not surprised your friend was pissed off with you...

I'm really interested in the amount of people who are completely disregarding the obvious fact that smoking kills more people and orphans more children than drugs.

I think because it's far more socially acceptable and a lot of you either smoke or have had parents that smoke are creating an argument that isn't there.

Just to be clear

I was offended at my friends horrid comments about someone suffering from substance abuse, as though having any type of demon/addiction/disability/shortcoming MAKES YOU A BAD PARENT

Just to be even more clear

It was her who was saying that battling addiction and thus dying makes you a bad parent - she wasn't commenting on the social aspect of addiction as we were speaking about a very well off celebrity who was even described after she died as an amazing mother.

I then said lay off her a bit - Just because she was battling addiction does not mean that she did not love her children

I then went on to say

You are a smoker which puts your health at risk just as drugs do but you still love your kids....your personal demons are not a reflection of how much you love your children!!! Thats why people bloody get clean and change their lives....don't judge people!!!!

I also pointed out that just because she smokes her death stick in a nice zara coat and some drug addicts are homeless and scruffy doesn't mean one is more acceptable as a parent than the other

You really said that?

I'm really interested in the amount of people who are completely disregarding the obvious fact that smoking kills more people and orphans more children than drugs
Smoking kills more people per year, because more people smoke.
However, a much higher proportion of heroin addicts will be dead due to their addiction.

Or put another way, if you take 1000 smokers and 1000 heroin addicts, at the end of year 1, 5 and 10, many, many more of the heroin addicts will be dead. And of those who are left, an increasingly smaller amount would be fit parents.

thecatfromjapan Yes thats what I'm saying!!! I'm saying why is one addiction more worthy of sympathy / social acceptability than another? Why is a smoker with terminal lung cancer because of smoking more deserving of compassion than someone battling addiction from a health perspective and a health perspective only

'I think because it's far more socially acceptable and a lot of you either smoke or have had parents that smoke are creating an argument that isn't there.'

PMSL.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Wonder why her self-esteem is so low that she feels compelled to hang out with people like you. Hope she comes on here and gets some support for that.

CandiKate, the thing is, even while you SAY you point is to tell your friend: "Don't judge!" You, yourself, are saying really quite cruel things about smokers - whilst simultaneously acknowledging that it is an addiction that is both penalised AND enabled by consumer-capitalist society.

You are, my love, committing so many acts of 'doublethink' you must look like a circus contortionist!

Darling: smoking IS an addiction. It IS harmful. But it is incredibly hard to quit precisely because it is still enabled by society.

It's therefore a really good idea to use moderate language and bite your tongue when talking to addicted friends. Because you like them. And you know it's hard.

I'm not making anything up. You said:

How can you be a good active parent when you cannot walk without a nebulizer, are wheelchair bound and can't talk because of the hole in your throat you have to breathe out of?

They're your words. You're questioning the parenting ability of people with physical impairments.

As for this:

How can you be a good parent when you are bed bound from the chemo rounds you have to go through because of the cancer in your lungs?

Words utterly fail me at you your crassness. My sister was a bloody brilliant parent right up to the day she died.

Are you also known as Katie?

I think Ive missed a few posts, I cant see any that 'pity' anyone.

I can see reference to death sticks, Zara coats, comparing valium to coke, someone cant be a good parent if they are on a nebulizer, "ranting raving smackhead"(s), pimps, crack houses, missing teeth.

Theres no pity in your posts, I get the feeling you are more sympathetic to 'posh' addicts though.

As somone who has adopted a child was exposed to this vile drug wiles in the womb smoking a fag doesn't often lead to negelct and ones child taken into care very very offensive unlike Herion