To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

If I was asked by another parent to discipline their child for them I would be a bit and would refuse. I understand why you think this would be effective, maybe it would, but I'd be inclined not to ask the dad at this stage as it would likely look to him as though you can't discipline your son yourself.(not implying this is the case but if he is already unimpressed with you/your DS that is likely how he would view it) maybe ask the school for help first?

The School just said that if another incident happened involving Polly and Ds then I would have to sit with Polly and her Dad with Ds and discuss it. I'd really rather it not get to a third incident.

If I was pollys parent I would not wish to be involved with your child. I would want you to do the parenting. Unless he has additional needs I would be furious if a SEVEN year old bit my child. This is not a toddler we are talking about.

If your ds was my child I would have a punishment in place - no tv, no iPad missing a club. Something to show that this behaviour is totally unacceptable.

It happened at school. Leave it at school. Don't involve parents. School seem to be dealing with it.

I would ask your DS if Polly is doing anything horrible to him. Sometimes it takes a while for children to tell you what's happening. Polly might be quite evil.

Polly's Dad's only responsibility is to his dd, to keep her safe. It is your responsibility to stop your son attacking other children.

You say I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour, and yet you imagine the Dad would be happy to parent your child for you?????

Orinonco Ds has been sent to his room so no tv (as there isn't one there) or iPad not that he goes on it that often. I can't send him to his room indefinitely and I can't ban TV downstairs as i'm punishing his brother as well as him which isn't fair.

Biting is horrific and very out of character. He didn't even bite as toddler so I have no idea why he reacted like that.

If I was asked to tell off another child by their parent I would think " no, discipline your Own flippin child"
I would assume you were too soft to do it yourself ( probably unfairly)
7 is pretty old to be biting as well.
It does sound odd that he's suddenly doing this but he really does need to be punished and understand that's it's totally unacceptable.

I think you did the entirely wrong thing in not acknowledging to Polly's Dad what was happening, particularly as you saw him on more than one occasion.

And it's entirely inappropriate for you now to approach him to discipline your DS.

And regardless of whether Polly is 'evil' or not, it's totally wrong for your 7 year old to bite and hit her.

No I don't think that's a good solution. It is your responsibility to teach your son how to behave and discipline him, and if you are struggling, you should seek appropriate support from professionals eg the school or a child counsellor. Does the school have a counsellor? If so you could ask if the counsellor could talk to your son and the girl to find out what the issue is and advice them (as well as the parents and teachers) how to deal with it. If they don't have a counsellor in the school could you afford to pay for one or two private sessions for him?

Agree that you cannot ask Polly's dad to do the disciplining, but you could ask the school to facilitate the meeting now, rather than wait for a third incident. You could say that ds wants to apologise to Polly and her dad, and ask the school to set it up.

First however, I would ask the teacher if you can go in and speak with her and take ds with you to see if he can see you and the teacher being at one about this. You and the teacher could also talk about strategies to cope with someone who annoys you, and what he can do if she is near him and he feels the red mist descending.

It's good that you are taking this seriously (though don't let it worry you. Chances are that it is a phase, which will pass) What role is your dh playing however? Until you mentioned being happily married I had the impression that you were a single mum. Has dad got anything to say on the matter?

The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand.

So who told you that Polly had shoved your DS?

Is there a bit more to it than appears? It seems odd that he's generally non-violent but has had two incidents with this particular girl. And shuts down and won't discuss it. I don't think bringing in Polly's father would achieve anything at all (especially as he's fuming) but some more probing questions to the school might be in order.

If you asked me to do this I'd be thinking you didn't want to parent, discipline or be seen as the 'bad guy' and would probably make the assumption that this is why your DS is aggressive. (I'm sure your DS is a lovely boy but when it's the same child hurting yours it's hard not to form opinions to be honest).

I agree with Orinoco. It's a school matter and I would let them deal with it.

That said, has your son ever shown this tendency to react violently before? If not, I would suggest a meeting with his teacher to see if there's anything else going on. Is she provoking him? Has it changed the dynamics of the class with Polly's arrival?

I applaud your reaction - I.e. Stay calm but not let it go unpunished.

My DS is non violent in every way. If this happened to him I would really question it and NEED to find out the background.

Unless your DS has had a complete character change, then I can only assume that Polly has annoyed/hurt him first - or something. Changed the dynamics in class? There will be a reason for a lovely non-violent little boy to suddenly bite or punch someone. Really. I usually find the truth comes out whilst they're relaxing in the bath - sometimes days later! Sounds weird under the circumstances, but be very nice to him and ask him all about the background leading up to what happened. He's only little, school have probably punished him enough.

Ok ok - step back. This child is new in school and is the only one DS is violent too? That for me is alarm bell number 1. There must be more to this relationship between the 2 of them.

Secondly - your DS (quite rightly ) got a good dressing down and punishment for biting. Did Polly receive the same punishment for hitting your DS in the first place? Retaliation by force is norm crept able but neither is reining the first blow. I personally don't believe just because your DS actions were more severe physically wise it should cloud the actuall timeline of incidents.

Thirdly - Polly was talking. What was she saying? Again it doesn't excuse your DS actions but will inform staff on why it occurred.

I haven pent many enough years working with children, mostly in education to know a child who is generally non violent and doesn't have from for approaching children and hurting them is unlikely to just start doing it - he's not gaining anything from this behaviour.
Also if your DS is always held 100% accountable it's very likely Polly will up her ante, provoke your DS because she knows she won't get a punishment.

Your DS begaviour towards her new nipping in the bud, not by the dad, but by getting the bottom of the actual route cause of this.

Don't ask the dad to discipline your child for you. Agree that you should make an appointment to see the teacher with a view to sitting down with the dad, teacher and you. I also would have apologised to the dad personally. I wouldn't be happy with a parent who knew their child had bitten mine appearing to ignore the situation. I think you are doing the right thing by discussing it with your DS but it's time to speak to the teacher.

No No No don't get pollys dad to o anything.
Also, don't go to any meeting including pollys dad, you don't have to.
It is none of his concern how you deal with it, it is his concern how the school deal with it.
I know your ds is to blame and it must be hard for you hearing about this behaviour.
If you involve this parent you are leaving your ds open to bullying from others if polly decides to tell class mates about your ds, her dad and the whole thing can soon develop.
Punish him how you feel fit and keep communication open with school and of course your ds.

Ok x posts galore and relief as thought I may be flame for suggesting the DS isn't entirely to blame!

Ds said Polly shoved him and I don't think he would lie about this at all. Polly denied the shove to the teacher.

I can't see DS reacting that strongly to a child who hadn't done anything to him. Not that a shove ever warrants a bite.

My DH doesn't shout he isn't the shouting type that would put the fear of god into a child. He'll discuss it with ds when he gets home but that's probably it. He's very much good cop and i'm bad cop I do all the deciplining as I'm with the children more than him.

I can't even see what us screaming and shouting at him would achieve as he's well aware of what he did is wrong as he had a panic attack after biting Polly.

That's the problem though isn't is?

DS reacted to a shove with a bite, knew his reaction was extreme, felt bad, made amends got punished etc.

Polly denied doing anything and was believed. No punishment - nothing. She didn't even feel bad about them shove.

Hs not the one with problem imo. But he will have problems that will get worse if Polly gets away with stuff because he'll get angrier and angrier at her and the unfairness.

How did he say the shove happened?

Were they standing in a line? Or did she walk across the playground/classroom and shove him?

The reason that I didn't apologise to Polly's Dad is because I feel like it would have been quite confrontational on his part, especially as Polly denied the shove. Nothing I could have said would have made the situation better, it was very out of DS's character. If it had happened under my supervision I would have apologised without hesitation. As it happened at school I felt it was the schools job to deal with it. Until the second incident and now I can see what I and the school have said to DS isn't actually resulting in him not lashing out at Polly.

DS had apologised to Polly after the incident. Made her a sorry card at home to take into school and the apologised again in person. He was truly sorry.

TBH I don't think I would have ever asked Polly's Dad to have a word with DS (as i'm a bit intimidated by him and he clearly doesn't like me) but I just had no clue where to go from here. I just really want him to see it from Polly's Dad and Polly's point of view.

How could apologising to Polly's Dad be confrontational on his part????? What am I missing?

I'm going to put DD to bed and I'll talk with Ds again once she's down about the shove and the talking in line and how he gets on with Polly general and if she was told off for the shove etc.

I think you should say something to the dad. In the past when there was a similar incident with my daughter the parents came up to me and apologised and told me what they were doing about it with their son.
I appreciated that, we'ev actually become very good friends over the years.
Asking the dad to step in is out of the question really but you need to set a suitable punishment for your ds to get the message.