To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

mynewpassion

Ds's class has had a new boy start since his anxiety surfaced a year ago and he didn't hit or bite him, they are really good friends.

I do think DS dislikes Polly because she's "new". the class all be it small has had a few line up changes over the years maybe 14 of them are the same children from pre-school. Other than that children have come and gone. over the past 3 years.

From what the Head has said there is something going on between Polly and DS and it isn't all down to DS. So although he may have anxiety I don't think it's making him lash out for no reason towards Polly.

There are lots of CBT therapists, but it is very hard to find one who is qualified to work with children. As it was explained to me, children are still in the process of creating/laying down their behaviour patterns - so they are very 'fluid' which makes them hard to treat this way.

Your DH needs to step up with the disciplining. My dad was similar in that it was generally my mum telling me off and he was generally the 'good cop'. However on the occasions that I really was out of line he'd tell me off and it stuck with me. I don't think he even shouted. It was more that the shock of him being upset and cross with me over my actions was more effective because of it's relative infrequency. If I was in trouble with dad then I knew how serious it was.

Hmmm ....

Polly is a new girl in a small class where three quarters of the pupils are boys.

This makes me wonder. This isn't an easy situation for a seven year old girl to navigate.

Just how many girls are there in this class? You say there are just over 20 pupils, and 15 are boys, so are we saying that 6 may be girls? Has the arrival of another girl spoilt some sort of delicate equilibrium in the class room, considering that it is already rather skewed in respect of the boy/girl ratio?

Something is obviously gone wrong here. For example, I very much doubt Polly is the only child in that class to ever talk in line this year and your DS hasn't hit anyone else, has he? So I would suggest there is something about this girl or what she represents that has caused some sort of issue with your DS.

That he keeps saying he doesn't know why he is doing it suggests that he finds this girl, or the presence of this girl, threatening on a level that he cannot explain that it could be territorial, for example. The thing is in classes of only boys or a very high percentage of boys, you can get a distinct pack mentality emerging: the boys understand their place in the class and their relationships between one and other through that lense. The small number of girls in such a scenario can end up very isolated in their own clique and pretty much entirely ignored by the boys and girls are often happy at this age to occupy this space.

If Polly has come in and shaken this up a bit, the reactions could be quite bizarre. You mention that Polly was sat with DS's friend, for example. Maybe to your DS, on some level, he feels that this is not Polly's "space" and she should be sat with the girls ... but he can't say that because he can't identify that that is the reason for his discomfort.

Or it could just be that Polly has come into the class in the middle of the school year and your DS can't cope with this change. It could also be that he only understands "new girls" in his close environment as having to be babies or smaller than him. After all, at home, the "new girl" has been a little baby -- you could argue that this is his "model" for "new girls" in his life so far.

Biting is a pretty primitive response to a threat, you see, and suggests that the threat itself has touched a very primitive nerve. That the class is small and overwhelmingly boys suggest that your DS could understand his role and place with sole reference to the other boys in his class. If a new boy joins, they all work it out according to "boy rules", but this new person is a girl ... so there is a kind of fracture in knowing how to deal with it, particularly if she occupies what your DS regards as "boy space".

I may, however, be totally wrong.

Thanks all I'm going to leave the thread now.

I will look further into Ds's anxiety. But I will wait until this all dies down.

I want to tackle it as a separate issue.

I will ask at parents evening next week if they have seen DS showcase any signs of anxiety over the term. If so what do they think the triggers are in school.

I will also talk to the DR. and see what he suggests will be beneficial or ask for a referral and then just take it from there.

Thanks for everyones advice, and recommendations.

I would also add that this could be why your DS reacted so strongly to Polly talking in the line as being "against the rules".

Just what "rules" are we really talking about here? The school rules? Or your DS's understanding of the "silent rules" that govern everyone's place within the class?

If your DS feels that Polly is infringing those "silent rules", it could explain why he kicked off so badly when she broke the school rule of not talking in the line. He actually hit her for infringing the "silent rules", not the school rules.

Of course, he probably doesn't realise this.

He sounds like a normal, healthy boy to me doing the same kind of daft things that lots of kids do. Please post back when he 18 and let us know how it worked out!

Just read update and sounds like School are handling it well. I think you handled Pollys Dad well too.

Sounds a good sensible approach raisin - I'm sure everything will work out ok, once they've had chance to settle down. Sending you and a

Hope it all works out OP

Op, if you do come back I just wanted to say I agree with your idea about trying to get to the bottom of his behaviour. You can do that at the same time as making it very clear that the hitting is unacceptable. People saying that it doesn't matter why he did it are both right and wrong IMHO. There's no excuse for that response but in the context of a classroom situation you have to unravel the events to find out what is actually going on so you can resolve it properly.

I've been teaching this age group for nearly 20 years. I would be amazed if a previously well behaved child sudden started hurting others for no reason. I could give you many examples of one child winding the other up and the other one hitting out where I have obviously made it clear that hitting is totally unacceptable. However, that hasn't stopped me trying to get to the bottom of what happened.

If you have a child who IS winding people up (such as one I taught who enjoyed teasing a boy with SEN because it was "funny" to see his reaction) you owe it to everyone to address their behaviour too.

Maybe your son was wound up, maybe he wasn't. I just have a feeling that you will get to the bottom of it and that you can do that without condoning his undesirable behaviour. Well done for talking to the head and the dad.

Sounds like you handled it very well.

If you do decide to go down the route of helping DS with anxiety there's a good book by Dawn Heubner called "what to do if you worry too much". It's a can't workbook aimed at children. It's worked wonders with my DS.

To me it sounds like your son was feeling unfairly treated over the first incident (i.e. he was shoved so bit in response - only he got punished) , he then saw Polly breaking yet another rule and was anxious that she should not get away with it again, and keen to make her toe the line, and was still feeling the injustice from previously. The fact he again is getting punished and Polly has not been punished for talking in line will only reinforce the sense of injustice.
I hope things resolve themselves, perhaps the best thing to do is for him to stay as far away from Polly as possible for the next few weeks!

Ahh OP, I think you took the wind out of a few people's sails with your account of your reasonable, informative and well-handled conversations with the head teacher and Polly's dad

Some of the posts on this thread have been really, really odd.

Anyway, sounds like everyone is moving forwards. Good. Hope you get it sorted.

I think maybe the reason this was difficult for you, is because your ds has always been a well behaved, and cheery fellow, so you were unprepared and bewildered that he would bite someone. But it sounds like it has been handled ok in your update, I bet he doesn't ever bite again.