To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

Firstly I think your DS may need some help or may have some kind of SN or problem that is contributing to this. Until or unless he has some kind of intervention or assessment of that type, we can't know just how responsible he is for this behaviour or even what response will work best.

However when someone in a class is subject to a repeated pattern of violence, for whatever reason, then she is going to feel very insecure and upset and so are her parents. I think it's vital that you the parent apologise to her and her parents on his behalf, and that you make clear that your FIRST priority is to stop it happening to keep her safe. If it doesn't stop, you need to work with the school and her parents to find a way of protecting her.

Otherwise what does it look like from their POV? I'm sorry but it looks like you are on the defensive and want to shuffle the blame onto her. I would be fuming too. There is a problem with your DS's behaviour, not with Polly, and you need to be on the case and look like you mean it.

You might be right about exploring further. Just wondering if he is lashing out due to anxiety? I'm no expert, but know a bit about social anxiety and it can sometimes make one a bit bristly and defensive in group situations IME.

Btw I don't actually think this is necessarily about punishment. You need to find out what will help him best; there are some DC for whom punishment won't work at all, but just make them more stressed and reactive; there are ways of having firm boundaries without harsher and harsher punishments. But you do need to show Polly's parents that you are sorry for what has happened.

Middle I think there should be a consequence (hate the word punishment but use it if you like) at home if he does it again. And yes a strong consequence (though the OP and her DH need to work out what that should be)

The school have dealt with it. The school have seen it has happened more than once and will be now on the look out for Polly and the DS's behaviour/relationship/triggers. It may sound counter-intuitive to let things just pan out, but I think the alternative - to over play this at home punishment-wise now - could make it worse. And the more info coming from the OP the more I think this.

IMVHO 2 instances do not make a pattern of behaviour. Yes if it happens (or something, such as an escalation of emotions which) again then the OP needs to come down hard on her DS. They do not mean this DS is now a life-long bully and a thug. (Unless he is made to think he is by overreacting).

But for now it is done, discussed, punished. Let him try to move on positively. Let him show he has learned his lesson. Let the school help him behave positively if he get annoyed/anxious.

zoom I've updated the situation. I spoke to the Head today and Polly's Dad.

Youngminds and nhs choices has some good advice on childhood anxiety. I think with the support from the head and his teacher, you'll be able to stop the situation at school escalating

FFS now he has SN? Jeez. OP walk away from this. The frothing is unbelievable. Listen to the head teacher.

Polly's dad know you are taking it seriously. Tick
The head knows you are taking it seriously. Tick
You have had a strong word with your DS and he knows you are taking it seriously. Tick.
The school will be monitoring the situation. Tick.

I know, but it sounds like you didn't say "I am so sorry". Maybe you did in which case great. I just know that when I've been in Polly's dad's situation, that's what you want.

By the sound of it, he may well have SN or if not SN as such, have an anxiety issue. It's not so terrible to look at that possibility.

MyFirstName - I agree with everything you say, but OP has said that there have not been any consequences at home other then a period in his room.

Op great you have spoken to head and dc dad....sounds like this will make things easier all round. Hope there are no more incidences but it sounds like the school will closely monitor also.

Much diagnosing going on here....

Your DS has never been violent to anyone else... hmmm... something here doesn't add up. What is Polly saying or doing in DS's presence?

I'd ask the teacher to bring forward the meeting with Polly and her dad and get it all out in the open. Teacher must have some idea why they don't get on and why DS is reacting so badly to her?

raisin, I've just read the thread and it sounds like the issue is being addressed properly at school, from what the head said. It seems like your DS is a normal little boy and that this is just one of those things that happens with children, and it's bizarre that someone has started talking about specials needs!

I just wanted to say something about the hitting "Polly" when she was talking in line, as you have said you couldn't understand it - my daughter is only 2 but she already shows signs of being "bossy" (probably not the right word) - if her friend does something naughty, she will tell her off despite it being something that doesn't affect my DD. I'm trying to get her to understand that, even if someone else does something wrong, it's not DD's responsibility to tell her off. I think it sounds like your DS may have felt the same way about the talking in line. Of course he was wrong to hit her, but it might explain why he reacted rather than leaving it to the teacher to tell her off. Being the eldest child in the family might contribute to this, but I expect it's partly just his character. It's the same sort of thing as telling tales - wanting justice and wanting to have a hand in sorting out the issue. In short, I think you should try not to worry about what he has done, while of course continuing to address any hitting/biting etc which happens in future as being a thing he should not do regardless of the reason (hopefully it won't happen again anyway).

Good luck with the whole situation - it sounds like all you need to do now is keep liaising with the school as they deal with whatever problems there are between the kids, and I agree with a previous poster who said that you shouldn't punish him any further for what has already happened, as you and the school have already addressed this.

OP, I think you need to stop branding him as 'non-violent'. Most kids act or feel violent occasionally, it is perfectly normal - they just need to learn to control it.

MiddleAgedAndConfused

The consequences for Ds was isolation in his room for an evening. He doesn't like being upstairs on his own away from the rest of the family.

consequences only work if they will evoke a feeling in the child of missing out, or upset. If my DS isn't bothered about having toys removed because he isn't attached to them, or missing out on day trip because he isn't that bothered about day trips, or missing a party then how can they be used as part of a consequence?

I have nothing materialistic to remove because he isn't actually bothered it wouldn't register as a punishment. He'd accept it and move on, there would be no anguish. My other DS who is 5 is the complete opposite he sees stuff on TV and declare that he wants it for his Birthday (8 months away), asks for stuff constantly. So I would be able to use that form of punishment on him because he's into "stuff".

much diagnosing going on here...

Yeah alright then.

OP has mentioned anxiety problems and panic attacks, it's not bizarre for people to say he may benefit from some help with that. That may or may not amount to "Special Needs" - it could simply be a tendency to anxiety that he needs help to deal with better; it could be a manifestation of stress caused by an SN that could be diagnosed.

The fact that he may have such an issue doesn't mean he is excused for hitting someone.

Zoom I can assure you DS doesn't have special needs.

His anxiety would be a mental health issue and not a special needs issue.

i am confused, been reading this thread and can't see how to instances = sn.

op It sounds like you are doing all the right things.
but please speak to the dad. he is new and might be glad to chat.

Sorry Raisin - it just sounded like you were asking for ways to impose sanctions that mattered to him. For what is it worth, I think you have done a lot of the right things so far - seen school, spoken to the other dad, spoken to your son.

My DS decided (at the same age) that it would be fun to start kicking another boy at school as a game. We were gentle with him the first time, explained why it was wrong, but he did at again. The second time, we were not gentle; he was punished severely and told in no uncertain terms what would happen if it he did a third time. That was when he decided it was in his best interests to stop. But every child will respond differently, so you know what is best for your DS.

I'm not saying he does, but that professional help with what might be an anxiety isssue might be useful.

Also, while I don't know whether he does or not, you can't necessarily be sure at 7 whether or not he does. SN covers a wide range if things and some can be mild. Some people are not diagnosed until adulthood.

my DS has anxiety issues which had lead to him being on the SEN register (or whatever they call it these days). I'm not quite sure why you think mental health is not a reason to be on the SEN register?

Not possible to decide from one incident and a bit of other anxiety mentions whether his anxiety is significant enough in his case to justify being on the SEN register but don't be so dismissive of it.

My son started off at a very similar age with very similar problems and it escalated quite dramatically within a year or two.

I would also be very very cautious about using exclusion as a punishment if he has separation anxiety - you say he is anxious and doesn't like being apart form the family and I don't know if this adds up to a real separation anxiety or just a simple he doesn't like being separated. But if he has separation anxiety then excluding him from the family is going to escalate his anxieties quite significantly.

I know this will frustrate those who are determined that you must punish him in some way - that he must suffer in order to see the error of his ways but using means which make him more anxious is more likely to increase the chances of another incident.

See how things go and be very alert to continuing low level over reactions to things. I allowed myself to believe that DS has no issues and that he was being picked on etc and if I had sought help earlier he may have had a significantly better time over the past few years.

CBT can be very effective for children with anxiety issues and also if you google mindfulness for children it might be helpful for you to practice it with him.

Glad the meeting with the Head went well and that you had the opportunity to chat to Polly's dad too. The Head seems very aware of what is going on and if I were you I'd feel heartened that he is on top of it and that he seems to know your DS well.

anxiety to changes. Polly is new and a rapid change to a class that has been mostly established for several months. Also the children's relationships have been built since baby groups. So Polly likely upsetting what your son's well-known and comfortability school life. If she was was meek and quiet, he wouldn't likely lash out.

Sorry Kew, to me SN is something that a child would need constant help with and monitoring, or treated slightly differently to make sure that their need are met.

DS's anxiety doesn't warrant to me to think that needs this to happen in this situation as it isn't constantly apparent in his day to day life. It has only surfaced on occasion. Also it does not interfere with his learning or other aspects of school, like sports, school plays etc.

Until the past two weeks he was just a regular boy who enjoyed school and excelled in some subjects, had a good friendship group and was generally happy and easy going.

I will look into CBT.

He isn't anxious if he's upstairs alone he just doesn't like not being in on the action downstairs, socialising etc. he's bored and it's probably bit lonely. But he isn't openly distressed.