To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

steff

He has had to miss both play times last time and the same again tomorrow.
I don't actually think that's much of a punishment. But i'm not sure what else they would do?

To be honest I have no idea about the hitting in line thing bar the fact that it's a rule break.

The kids are good at sticking to rules of not talking etc they are a small class and all know what to do, they've been at the school for 3 years. So they know no talking means no talking I guess. So maybe it was to do with the fact that she was rule breaking and he didn't want the class to get told off, or the fact that the rest of them follow the rule and she wasn't? I actually have no idea how his logic works. And why he would then lash out when she didn't stop talking, bar from frustration and annoyance. When I asked why he did it he just says he doesn't know why, but stresses that she was talking in line, so I can't make more sense of it than that.

Don't ask the Dad to tell off your son, worst idea ever (sorry!)

And secondly I think some posters are being a bit ott. Yes your son was wrong, but I highly doubt the two incidents were in anyway related.

I would treat them both as completely separate, and not start thinking he is singling out this other girl. Just tell him again that he must not hit and move on.

He's not a bad person, just a little boy who wanted everyone to be good in the line.

'If polly is that bad surely teachers would know'

Unfortunately that isn't always the case.

DS is in a special school, he has been coming home with bites, nips and scratch marks almost daily since starting there. Teachers didn't know how they happened, I assumed it was a child with severe learning disabilities having a quiet chew or a squeeze and that's why it was going un noticed so I didn't kick up a fuss, just mentioned it to them.

Then I went in to watch the class do something and that's when I saw it. One high functioning little boy targeting DS every single time the teacher turned around. Every time!

6 incidents I witnessed in 30 minutes, all while the teachers turned around. Another parent witnessed them also.

I had a meeting the next day and the teachers said "x? No he would never do that! It's not in his nature!"

Well I fucking well saw him and I'm not one to make up lies about small children with disabilities just for shits and giggles FFS.

Sometimes kids are sneaky.

Hopefully this will die a death. DS won't do it again and Polly might slot into her place in the class.

You prob won't get to the bottom of the issue, OP. I hope it fizzles out which it probably will .

When I was at school about 6 years old, a little boy used to bite his arm and say it was me. For no reason. I lost a lot of break times and was told off until one day I pointed out my teath were straight, the bite wasn't. He stopped after that. I accept this is probably not the norm but I still remember the feeling of injustice.

Honestly, I think sometimes children just do stupid, horrid things for no reason. If he's otherwise well-behaved, is sorry and has apologised and been punished then I'd just leave it.

My guess is that it will just blow over and he'll go back to being a nice lad who behaves well. I don't think this kind of analysis is going to lead anywhere. Obviously if his behaviour continues of escalates then I'd tackle it in a different way. But he's only 7. He probably can't understand his behaviour himself.

Ds just plays with the boys which heavily out weigh the girls. The more outspoken girls in class have quite a tight friendship. One plays with one of the quiter boys a lot and I think the other just flits from group to group and just does her own thing.

This is why I think Polly might possibly be finding it hard in the class because it is very boy heavy and most of the girls are already grouped off. Ds Is popular but I don't think a new girl would change the dynamics because they just play football at playtime and in class he's very focused he loves learning and just gets on with it. I doubt he's jealous of Polly as it's the smallest class in the school so I'm sure they all get sufficient attention from the teacher and I doubt the boys are that interested in a new girl as they are very much at the age where they just want to hang out with boys, boy only birthday parties etc.

Janine I said if and I do believe it a possibility that Polly is winding him up but clearly you don't. I also implied it could all be down to DS and then there would be a bigger issue as he's going around targeting a child with unproved attacks.

*unprovoked

I agree with tiggytape.

If this was a grown man doing it to a woman I don't think 'wind up merchant' would be used to discribe the woman he was assaulting.

You should have approached the dad and said you were aware of what was happening and your were doing your best to deal with it. I'd be fuming if my child was coming home being targeted by another child. Which he is as he has never done it to anyone else.

joy but it's not a grown man, it's 7 year old boy in a school setting not DV.

Lots of kids push other kids buttons to get a reaction or to see if they can get away with it. It's what kids do they push boundaries with adults and their peers.

I'm fully aware that the Dad is fuming and has every right to be. But I does seem odd that these incidents seem to be with the same child.

Thanks for all your advice, input and stories from experiences similar to this, it's been good to read different perspectives i'm going to go with youarekiddingme advice as I want to talk to the school.

I may be different to other parents but if my DS camel ime saying he was bitten I'd ask him what happened. If he told him he pushed the person first I would point out that whilst their reaction was wrong so was his. I would point out to him that if you choose to hurt someone you take the risk of not knowing how they will react.

And no provocation isn't a defence. But if we use DV as an example because it's come up - there is a reason that convictions of "manslaughter with diminished responsibility" exists.

Victim blaming much OP? I think you are making excuses for him.

do you think the dad think its odd that these instances are all with the same child? .I.e. yours!

since this is aibu - you seem completely deluded. there is something wrong happening here. even if polly had provoked him (which the teacher will be able to and probably has looked into) your son is clesrly incapable of dealing with his emotions. Not the end of the world -yoh jusf have to man up, do some actual parenting and put some sanctions in place to punish your son and help him to understand why he should behave.

instance of hitting her for talking - makes me think you've got a nasty bully of a child who likes control and thinks hes got the power and authority to punish other children. again id be having all the conversations you are having about why his actions are wrong but I would be following it up with some pretty severe punishments because your conversations and explaining things to him clearly hasnt gotten through.

I am gobsmacked that you can clutch at straws so much and defend him constantly, you seem to think that if every post had the caveat I know it was wrong but...... then whatever you day is reasonable. it isnt.

Victim blaming much OP? hmm I think you are making excuses for him.

Do you, I don't, I think i'm trying to understand how the situations have come about. I have said several times that he shouldn't have have acted as he did and how nothing would excuse his behaviour, so i'm not sure how you've missed that.

op - by assuming she is 'winding' him up leans towards thst she deserves it.

You have no idea at all even if she was - which is still no reason not to keep his hands to himself.

Sounds like you already have made your mind up. 'Polly' wound him up so he bit her and then again in another day he hit her in the stomach. - nice. Then you think you could ask her dad to scare him because he is unresponsive to YOU.

Basically you have put the responsibility of all this on polly and her dads toes. I wouldn't be surprised if Pollys dad is at home now telling polly to lamp him one back the next time he touches her.

Sounds like you are following the right course OP, well done.

Ask the school to keep your DS and Polly separate if possible, for both their sakes. You know your DS shouldn't have bitten or pushed. Your DS knows he shouldn't have bitten or pushed. Until he has the emotional maturity to process the best way to react in those situations, it's easier to try to ensure he's not in those situations.

It may be that Polly is completely innocent in which case, distance will limit the opportunities for your DS to lash out at her. Likewise if there is some reason this is only happening with Polly, (and she is pressing his buttons as a PP said) then keeping them separate means there is less likelihood your DS will respond.

I know ds is in the wrong for what he's done. So does he. I want to stop it from happening again or why would I bother posting? Of course I don't want my son to hurt a 7 year old girl.

But I also need to find out why he did what he did to help him cope and make the right choices if he's put in the same position again. If he is making snap reactions to a situation that he's in I need to teach him coping mechanism, count to 3, ignore, tell a teacher etc.

If he's just going out looking to attack another children he may need anger management or to be separated from the class, as I don't want any child to be put in a position where they could get hurt. I doubt he has anger issues as he's very placid. But I don't know and by ruling out any provoking by Polly then i'll have a better idea.

jig What would you call a severe punishment?

I would do something thag is hoing to provoke an emotional reaction from him. I.e. missing an event that he has been looking forward to such as a friend's bday party, not being able to have the same treat as his brother maybe an outting to the cinema in half term that he misses. I think he really needs to lose something that is going to be meaningful to him. He may be testing what he can do and get away with and this could go on for a long time unless you give him a very clear idea now that the consequences are far more dire than him controlling him temper and / or not reacting to provokation.

You don't need to know all the whys before teaching him coping mechanisms like counting to 3 or trying to get a teacher's attention. Do that now. He's popular and is well-known by everyone so I don't think he's lacking in self confidence.

Let's say Polly did shove him but what happened beforehand? Was she defending herself? How far do you really want to go back?

Yabu to think about involving Polly's dad.

I would mention to him that you are aware and ds will be apologising and you will be working with ds and school to ensure it ends here.