To get the Dad of the girl DS bit to tell him off?

[RaisinBread]

Name change as this is probably quite obvious who I am with the details that will follow but have been on MN for 7 years.

I'm at my whits end with DS (age 7) and I have no idea how to punish him for this behaviour. Backstory-

There is a new girl in his class he has a small class of just over 20 with about 15 boys. Now for the second time in just over two weeks he has been violent towards this girl. The first time I was pulled over at collection because the new girl, lets call her Polly had shoved ds (Polly denies this) So Ds bit her hand. He has never bit anyone before in his life. After the incident the teacher said he had a panic attack and needed a lot of calming down. I suspect I think he knew he had done something horrendous and didn't know how to cope with it. The teacher told me that Polly's Dad was extremely angry.

When we got home I talked through why it was wrong, talked through reversed situations asked how would have felt had it been him that had been bit, if someone else had bit his little sister or me etc. etc. We talked through what would have been the right decision after the shove (telling a teacher). He was told that the behaviour was absolutely unacceptable and that I was very angry and upset. He was then sent up to his room until dinner, made a sorry card for Polly and then had a bath and was told to go to bed. I didn't scream or shout at him just had stern words and made it clear that it was to never happen again.

Now ever since the biting Polly's Dad has been giving me slightly dirty looks on the school run, I just smile as I did politely prior to the incident (as you do when you pass people on the school run). He reluctantly had to hold open a gate for me the other day as I had DD in pushchair but didn't talk to me. I have a a clear impression that he doesn't like me or my son after the biting incident. I haven't bought up the subject with him as I don't think it would achieve anything and I'm not going to apologise for my son's behaviour as I feel It's DS's job to apologise to Polly which he did in person several times and in writing. And he was punished in school by missing his playtime (not that I think this actually achieves anything)

Now to today. When I picked up Ds I was told that he had hit Polly in the stomach because she was talking in line. When I asked him why he just says he doesn't know why, and got very upset and cried. I didn't leave it and kept on asking why and repeating that "I don't know?" isn't an acceptable answer. I have no idea what to do, he just shuts down and won't talk about it.
We talked through why it was wrong to hit and talked through scenarios, of what other people would have done to solve Polly's chatting (like the teacher) and obviously none of them involved hitting. He's been sent up to his room.

And now I have no idea what to do. DS is a bright boy he really enjoys school and tends to be quite focused in class and works really hard. He seems to find maths and spellings easy has started to really enjoy reading and generally does well in class. So he isn't lashing out out of frustration from struggling with his learning.

He has friends and I would say is popular within the school. So not lonely. He's never lashed out at another child out of the school setting (bar his brother). He doesn't play violent computer games, or watch violent films. I would say the most violent thing he watches would be Ninja Turtle, Tom & Jerry and Totally Spies.
All is well at home DH & I have been together for 10 yrs and are happy so he's not picking up on anything negative going on at home.
He loves his baby sister to bits and is very helpful at home with her. He scraps with his younger brother 5 at times. Which they are both pulled up for. So all in all nothing I can think that would be linked to his violent outbursts.

I am at loss as to how to stop him lashing out at this girl as he is more than aware that his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable. I can't prevent it from happening at school as I am not there to parent him and make sure he makes the right choices. That's down to him and the school. I am now thinking that if common sense and empathy for Polly isn't stopping him maybe fear will?

As Polly's Dad is fuming over the situation would IBU to get ask him to tell off DS (in the presence of a teacher) as I think this might install a bit of fear and get him to stop and think in future or just stay clear of Polly.
As talking it through really isn't working and I'm not going to shout at him because I'm not actually angry just very frustrated.

Bullys generally go out of their way to upset and hurt others.

Ds has acted horribly and he knows it but he isn't a bully. He made some poor choices, which are out of character.

You act how hard could Polly have shoved him? Does it matter she shouldn't have shoved him. full stop.

But Polly says she didn't shove him. What if she's telling the truth?

Gobby what do you mean explain to me what you would call telling off?

I definitely think the hit was to do with the you are doing something you shouldn't and we'll get into trouble, stop it. rather than Polly saying something to upset him.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Surely Polly isn't the only one out of 20 children who talks in the line. I know when I was in school, we would have to wait forever in line for all the kids to quiet down. I'm not implying Polly is doing something wrong, but I think there's more to it than she was just talking.

I think you do owe the dad an apology, it's a pretty upsetting situation and I would be full of apologies to the other parent, along with details of how we were dealing with this behaviour. If nothing else, it might stop there being a horrible atmosphere between you.

Polly's behaviour obviously is pushing his buttons, as you say, but lashing out or reacting physically is never going to be ok.

Well I don't think Polly is telling the truth and ds said the other boy saw her shove him.

Did the other boy tell the teacher that Polly shoved your son?

I would go into school and arrange to meet with teacher.

Start with you know and DS knows his actions have been unacceptable, he's accepted his punishments and has apologised.
Then ask if any witnesses were questioned re the bite. Point out that whilst your DS was in the wrong he was the only one punished when he was 50% of a 2 persona physical altercation. Mention there's a witness. You'll get told its old ground and don't take it up etc but then that's leads you into today.
Point out its not old ground. Your DS punched Polly without physical provocation today so there is an issue. State they as you don't know if that issue stems from him being punished solely for something she started.
Make it clear you are working with DS, he has been told to report all incidents to teacher, and it has been made clear to him violent retaliation is not acceptable.
Say you'd like someone keeping an eye out as this behaviour is out of character, your ds is not enough enjoying how its makes him feel so it's clear its not done for benefit, and ask school to intervene.

He made some poor choices

Listen to yourself!!

I don't know?

I think I would ask the teacher if he could have a meeting with the head teacher for a telling off - where you, the teacher and ds go to an official meeting with the head and the head talks through the two incidences and makes it very clear that this behaviour is not tolerated and going forward he has to earn the trust of the school etc etc - make it in to a serious situation.

Then the next day I would approach the dad with ds in tow and apologise profusely to the father explaining that ds has had a meeting with the head teacher and you expect him to behave properly going forward etc but only if polly is not present incase there is some other dynamic that no one is aware of.

Careful OP, it does start to sound like you're latching on to the "Polly is provoking him" line of thinking. It doesn't sound like that's necessarily the case and even if he is being a little provoked his reaction is way disproportionate. You certainly don't want to give DS the idea that he's behaving this way because of what Polly's doing.

I would just advise DS to ignore whatever Polly is doing even if he finds it annoying or wrong, and concentrate on making sure his own behaviour is top notch. Explain to him the "two wrongs don't make a right" principle, and also the fact that if person A does something wrong but then person B does something even worse back, then person B is going to get all the blame.

I used to be the child who overreacted to provocation, and saying "but she started it" never ever helped. Once I'd lashed out it was always me who was in the wrong no matter what the provocation. So I do have sympathy for your DS but he has to learn and blaming the other child in any way will give him the wrong idea.

You don't have to apologise to Polly's dad, but I think it would be very unwise to get him involved with disciplining your son. I also think it sounds like there is more to it than appears, maybe Polly is picking on him?

I think youarekiddingme has good advice.

I don't think you can justify your son biting Polly. You know that.

However you do need to get to the bottom of why it's happening but your child needs to take responsibility for his actions and stop reacting like that.

IreneA78

Those are the schools words they don't say your child has been naughty today , they say that DS made some poor choices today. The right choice would have been to go and tell a teacher, but instead ds did xyz.

They don't want to give children the label of being "naughty" as then the child believes that they are naughty. They want to install in the child that their actions are their choice. And encourage them to make the correct choices, be kind, considerate, polite, helpful etc.

Was he punished at school for these incidents?

I think I would tell DS that he will have to have a conversation with you, teacher and Polly and Polly's DF if it happens again, because that is surely quite scary for a 7 year old. And would be a deterrent to him biting again.

I read your OP thinking strange strange (that he is behaving this way) until I got to 'he loves his baby sister' - could he be jealous of new baby sister and his feelings be coming out against new girl in class?

To think someone would be overjoyed that someone else had come into their world who was taking everyone's attention and could do no wrong (baby sis) is expecting a lot! Maybe he is subconsciously annoyed.

Can I illiterate that nothing that Polly has done to ds will ever make his actions acceptable. I am appalled by his behaviour. I have said this several times.

But If another child is being a wind up merchant then I can see why he acted out of character. If not then we have a much bigger problem on our hands.
DS knows he's acted appalling. He is upset about the whole situation and by that I mean his actions.

I don't want anything like this to happen again. And a good way of ensuring that is by the school being aware of the whole situation. So I do need to find out what Polly has or hasn't been up to.

I don't understand why he would hit the girl for talking in the line!?

What skin is it of his nose if she talks, even if it's against the rules?

DD is nearly one and a half now so I doubt it has anything to do with her.

CocoBearSqueeze

That all depends if the other children have told on her or not. For all I know a teacher may be aware of Polly's behaviour with the other children but they aren't in the position to discuss that with me, as it's none of my business if Polly told Jane to shut up.

That's how DS school do it too Raisen the poor choices thing.

I've been through this with my DS. He was also biting. (He has asd but it's still not acceptable behaviour or reaction).
He was told to tell teacher any incidents, I taught him at home how to do this. Teacher then complained about the number of times DS was reporting incidents.
I pointed out that the fact she was complaining showed his constant reporting was obviously driving her nuts - so imagine being that 8yo boy on the receiving end of all the reported incidents - unable to control emotions. Then understand his reaction and work with other children to stop their behaviour alongside supporting DS to react appropriately. The school were and actually denied there would be anything because this lad was "one of the nice boys".
I got senco involved - who involved ELSA. They heard what was being said to DS which resulted in that boy being excluded for 2 days. DS has not bitten anyone in 2 years. I still think my DS was wrong to bite - and still believe if he wasn't told he was going to be pinned down and stripped of his clothing he wouldn't have bitten iyswim? (What resulted in the exclusion was even worse).

I don't think anyone is justifying the DS behaviour, or condoning his reaction. Just pointing out all is unlikely as it seems and until that information is clear it's hard to know how to proceed.

Polly may well be a sweet innocent new girl. If that's the case then how they proceed with the DS here will reflect that.

But all decisions need to be made on a knowledge of the full facts.

Now Polly's a 'wind-up merchant', apparently

Firstly if you asked me to discipline your child Imight just die of the cringe. That is a vile thing to ask someone to do

Second, in my experience, getting the parents of Other Children involved never ends well